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tcschenks
Cadet
Joined: 21 Jun 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Poplar Bluff, MO
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 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| I wasn't paying a lot of attention when they aired, but did any of those undersea episodes of The Clone Wars tv series ever show any starships going underwater? |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Tramp Freighters underwater |
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It is true that water pressure is greater than air pressure on the surface of an Earth like planet. It is true that subaquatic vehicles that maintain a breathable environment inside have to withstand external water pressure, but spaceships do not only have to hold in atmosphere. They also have to withstand collisions with solid objects, battle damage, lightspeed transitions, (and hyperspace travel itself). A spaceship only capable of maintaining air pressure when out in a vacuum would get shredded easily, so I feel the belief that the hulls of space worthy vessels couldn't withstand any water pressure is misguided.
However even if a spaceship didn't go to deep, its sublight drive shouldn't work underwater. Most space ships would probably only be able to move underwater by using their repulsorlift drives if the floor of the water body isn't too deep. Of course those drives normally work in the air so the water being in the way should make it a high difficulty with greatly reduced speed.
| garhkal wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: | Or, you just stick one of these on:
| Page 29 - Scum & Villainy Conversion wrote: |
Amphibious seals
Model: Mon Cal aquaseal package 389-D
Cost: 4,000
Availability: 2
Game Notes: This upgrade allows a ship to function as a submarine in addition to performing as a space vehicle. Pressure seals and special engine protection prevents water from damaging critical components, as well as allows the ship to endure the high water pressure. However, the ship may only move one tenth its atmosphere speed. This upgrade also allows a ship to land in a body of water. |
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Nice find, but wow is that way too cheap.. If i was to price it, it would be based ON the ship type (fighter, freighter, bulk freighter etc) as well as size/hull... |
Raven Redstar, thanks for finding this. I don't think I've opened that book in years.
I agree with garhkal that is way too cheap. Converting a non-aquatic spaceship should be such a lengthly and expensive engineering feat that it would be cheaper to just buy a starship that was designed for subaquatic travel in the first place (such as the DeepWater-class and the MC-13v2). So this "upgrade" is really quite ridiculous IMO.
But it does give a RAW precedent for spaceship underwater speed. When I created the MC-13v2, the subaquatic speed of one-fifth the atmosphere move was suggested to me, but that is about as fast as the top speeds of the fastest Earth submarines. Not that Star Wars tech shouldn't be more advanced, but this is still a spaceship that was primarily designed for traveling through space, hyperspace, and air.
The DeepWater uses its Shield system to protect it from the pressures of the deep underwater. I think that it stupid because if the shield system fails when the ship is down deep, the hull collapses. The hull should be specifically designed to withstand water pressure.
So to address both issues for the MC-13v2, I beefed the Hull up to 5D and decided that underwater the shield system instead converts to providing a supercavitating effect for the ship to explain that one-fifth speed. (This could be the tech that fast SWU submarines have as default.) So if the shield-system fails while the MC-13v2 is deep underwater, it just slows down instead of has a catastrophic hull failure. For the DeepWater which doesn't have the supercavitating shields, it will have the one-tenth speed (half the MC-13v2).
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Space is the absence of pressure, water is high pressure. A spacecraft is built to keep pressure in, not out. Except for normal atmospheric flight..
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | It is true that water pressure is greater than air pressure on the surface of an Earth like planet. It is true that subaquatic vehicles that maintain a breathable environment inside have to withstand external water pressure, but spaceships do not only have to hold in atmosphere. They also have to withstand collisions with solid objects, battle damage, lightspeed transitions, (and hyperspace travel itself). A spaceship only capable of maintaining air pressure when out in a vacuum would get shredded easily, so I feel the belief that the hulls of space worthy vessels couldn't withstand any water pressure is misguided.
However even if a spaceship didn't go to deep, its sublight drive shouldn't work underwater. Most space ships would probably only be able to move underwater by using their repulsorlift drives if the floor of the water body isn't too deep. Of course those drives normally work in the air so the water being in the way should make it a high difficulty with greatly reduced speed. |
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Space is the absence of pressure, water is high pressure. A spacecraft is built to keep pressure in, not out. Except for normal atmospheric flight.. |
I'm not sure if you are replying to me or the op/thread in general. A spaceship does have to keep atmosphere in and maintain air pressure inside it, yes, but that is an oversimplification of the topic at hand. Spaceship hulls do not only have to keep air in. They have to protect the system components and inhabitants from other things, such as asteroids and other space debris, pirate blasters, crash landings, hyperspace, and dangerous atmospheres. If spaceships only had to maintain internal air pressure, they would be too weak and catastrophes would happen too easily.
So the fact that most spaceships are not specifically designed to operate underwater does not mean that they would not be able to survive underwater. I'm not saying they can go deep with high pressures, but not too deep under the surface of water of an earthlike planet? The spaceship would be a really crappy spaceship if it was completely sealed for space travel and instantly started taking on water when it landed in a shallow pond. Of course, they couldn't drive around like a submarine without the ship having a drive and being designed to do that. Surviving underwater (not too deep) and operating like a submarine are two different things. A undamaged spaceworthy ship should be able to land in a shallow part of a lake and later lift off (with repulsorlifts), without taking on water while there were there.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting find. Comparatively, your MC-13 is more like a Medium Freighter to the MC-18's Light Freighter, like the Mon Cal equivalent of an HT-2200.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Interesting find. Comparatively, your MC-13 is more like a Medium Freighter to the MC-18's Light Freighter, like the Mon Cal equivalent of an HT-2200. |
It is. The MC-13v2 is bigger than a lot of light freighters and it is only 9.8m less shorter in length than the HT-2200 (but also not as wide or deep). But the MC-13v2 has less than 50% of the cargo capacity of the HT-2200. The HT-2200 helps me feel I didn't go overboard on the MC-13v2 cargo capacity. I definitely feel calling the MC-13v2 a "light" freighter would be wrong, so I don't. Are there really any set parameters for the line between light and medium anyway?
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Last edited by Whill on Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Quote: | | A point worth considering is that the only dual mode ship in existence (the MonCal DeepWater-Class Light Freighter) has to spend a round (?) reconfiguring from flight mode to submersible mode. |
The MC-18 light freighter is another Legends ship with submersible mode, which I did not realize when I designed the MC-13v2. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Interesting find... |
I also just found the Mantaris-class amphibious medium transport. This ship was created for an educational computer program that tied in with the release of TPM. The ship was created a joint venture between the Naboo and the Gungans (Theed Palace Space Vessel Engineering Corps/Otoh Gunga Bongameken Cooperative) in the newfound peace between their peoples immediately following TPM. It has a hyperdrive so it is a starship. WotC later made a game write-up for it as part of an online supplement for their Secrets of Naboo sourcebook. Someone then converted it to D6 and Gry Sarth put it in the Starships Stats fanbook. The original WotC stats do not give any rules for aquatic mode so the D6 conversion doesn't either, but the original program it appeared in explicitly stated it can travel through space, many different kinds of atmospheres, and underwater. I like it, even with the long "heat sink finials."
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Argentsaber
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 07 Oct 2017
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Just a thing to consider as far as pressure goes.. most ships are capable of flying in atmosphere at considerable speeds (which will increase the pressure at the bow considerably). Also, I suspect it might be valuable to consider that most ships can dive into a gas giant to a certain extent, and that's a similar condition to shallow water.
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Ray
Commodore
Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 1743
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, North America, Western Hemisphere, Earth, Sol, Western Arm, Milky Way
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:33 am Post subject: |
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So the myth of the DeepWater being the only submersible starship probably comes from the capsule in Stock Ships itself, which indicates that the ability to land on water and the ability to submerge are "unique." Which is a really odd error considering that earlier in the capsule it refers to the predecessor model which is also submersible ("the similar and plainly named Mon Calamari Light Freighter" which was published over a year before Stock Ships in the Adventure Journal). So WEG created a total of six Mon Calamari light freighter models, and three of these now-Legends models are submersible. Rare as it may be in the galaxy, the DeepWater's submergibility was not even "unique" in 1997. Silly WEG.
| Argentsaber wrote: | | Just a thing to consider as far as pressure goes.. most ships are capable of flying in atmosphere at considerable speeds (which will increase the pressure at the bow considerably). Also, I suspect it might be valuable to consider that most ships can dive into a gas giant to a certain extent, and that's a similar condition to shallow water. |
Thank you! Some fans talk like Star Wars ship hulls are only strong enough to hold one atmosphere or pressure in. Sure, there is no air pressure in most areas of space, but there are a lot of things you want your hull to protect you from getting in. If a Hull can with stand asteroid strikes and blaster hits, it can surely withstand some external pressure.
Good point about gas giants. And actually, if you could go deep enough the air pressure would actually be far greater than the water pressure at the deepest bottom of Earth's oceans. It is believed that the center of Jupiter is liquid metallic hydrogen. Hydrogen can normally only take a liquid form when it is cold, but it is about 24,000°C down there. The pressure is so great that this very hot hydrogen can't be cold yet can't be gaseous. Of course, if flying into a gas giant it would probably be the high wind that would tear the ship apart before the air pressure would crush it. A Star Wars ship should have a chance of surviving, if not going too deep.
So the question is, for a starship that is not especially designed for travel underwater (no special hull or shields reconfiguration), how deep could it go? On Earth, every 100 meters below sea level is about 10 more atmospheres of pressure (1 "atmosphere" being the air pressure at sea level). How many atmospheres can a ship withstand? There should be a point before which no Hull rolls need to be made.
And I'm not talking about a ship being able to move around under water like a submarine. I just mean a ship using its repulsorlift engines to slowly lower itself into a body of water, hide for a time, then use the repulsorlifts to carefully go strait up and get out of water later. The further away from shore the ship goes, the deeper the seabed is, and the better hiding spot it would be. So the GM would need to know what kind of pressure the ship's hull can withstand to know how deep the ship could go before water pressure would become a problem.
Thoughts?
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Ray
Commodore
Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 1743
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, North America, Western Hemisphere, Earth, Sol, Western Arm, Milky Way
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Considering the condition of the Falcon, I wouldn't try it with her.
But a ship that doesn't have exposed connections or a tendency of landing while completely on fire, yeah, they could probably handle being submerged for awhile.
The question is, how far down do you need to go for Sensors not to pick you up (and this will be different for different sensor suites)? Especially as you can't be "laying dead" with the power off if your repulsorlifts are still on to keep you from sinking like a stone. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray wrote: | But a ship that doesn't have exposed connections or a tendency of landing while completely on fire, yeah, they could probably handle being submerged for awhile.
The question is, how far down do you need to go for Sensors not to pick you up (and this will be different for different sensor suites)? Especially as you can't be "laying dead" with the power off if your repulsorlifts are still on to keep you from sinking like a stone. |
No, I don't mean using the repulsorlift to hover at a certain depth. I mean you have a body of water that gets deeper the further out from shore you go, and then you choose a depth and land on the bottom. You can power down. Whether you can be detected or not is not really the question here.
The question is how much can pressure can the hull take before fractures start appearing and it starts taking on water. How deep can the ship land underwater? I'm thinking it should be a function of Hull. Thoughts?
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:34 am Post subject: |
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If you were going to get really detailed with some semblance of verisimilitude, I would think it would be as much a test of their seals and pressurization systems, which might even be a separate stat.
However, I don't tend to play with that level of detail, and I think that it being a function of the hull makes perfect sense to me.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So the question is, for a starship that is not especially designed for travel underwater (no special hull or shields reconfiguration), how deep could it go? On Earth, every 100 meters below sea level is about 10 more atmospheres of pressure (1 "atmosphere" being the air pressure at sea level). How many atmospheres can a ship withstand? There should be a point before which no Hull rolls need to be made. |
| cheshire wrote: | If you were going to get really detailed with some semblance of verisimilitude, I would think it would be as much a test of their seals and pressurization systems, which might even be a separate stat.
However, I don't tend to play with that level of detail, and I think that it being a function of the hull makes perfect sense to me. |
Cool. Do you have any ideas of what depth would see reasonable for an earthlike world as a basis (gravity and size/sea level)? The idea is, that for a starship hull designed primarily to hold ship internals and atmo in, and survive external asteroid strikes and pirate blasters, what would be the external water pressure point where the ship would become damaged. I'd like to make the depth a function of the Hull, and just not even make Hull rolls until a certain depth, but that depth would vary depending on each ship's Hull. For ships that do not have special shield modifications that protect the ship, like the DeepWater.
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