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lurker
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 Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | Okay, so I've done more thinking.
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the Old Republic was like a neo-liberal paradise with the Republic itself being some sort of United Nations, complete with all its imperfections, bureaucracy and corruption, but also its high-mindedness in the form of egalitarianism, multi-culturalism, open and free economies (subject to the power of oligarchies), etc
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The fact that the separatists were economic conglomerates (the Trade Federation, the Banking Clan, the Techno Union, etc.) suggests that they had some grievance at Republic policy. Maybe they rebelled against regulation and taxation. Added to this is that the Separatist groups were mostly alien and their power bases were on the rim. Nevertheless, they wielded considerable power, suggesting a concentration of power resources - money, technology, lobbyists, and clearly also weapons and droids.....
Culture is a harder nut to crack. I certainly don't want to talk about all the belief systems and such-like, but instead about both social values and the galactic culture of strife. .... The Separatists - probably arguing that they were victims of central government overreach - decided to militarize and transgress the previous more peaceful culture. During the Clone War, beliefs were manipulated in order to paint the chaos of the rim as something to be feared; uniformity and order to be embraced.
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Great post, the only point I would argue (after rereading this, argue isn't right ... 'add' is better) is that the corruption of the "UN" type Republic would feed into the cultural issues. In specific adding pure and simple greed to the conglomerates. What is the saying 'money is the root of all evil' - I'd more correctly put it 'love (or overarching desire) of money leads to evil'. With that, simple greed could get the ball rolling, and the greed would fuel the government's corruption, which will further fuel the individual/conglomerate greed, and the circle turns and turns again ... To me that is a key factor on the trade federation and other so easily and willingly becoming pawns of the Sith's plan
That said, I also think there would have been 'good' planetary governments that become separatists and therefor be on the' bad' side of the war. Which just further feeds into the sith's plans, but that is a different rabbit to chase.
So, now back to the start. what tools would the Empire use to keep this cycle going? Becides the obvious ...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | | So, now back to the start. what tools would the Empire use to keep this cycle going? Becides the obvious ... |
More clone wars, suppressing the fractured but still hostile separatist remnants, fighting this time against beings, not droids.
Strawman operations, using special forces to engage in terrorist acts which are then blamed on separatist / republican rebels to exercise greater control.
Biological warfare waged against friendly populations (ala V for Vendetta) for the same reasons as above...
EDIT: Atrocities committed by clones (as ordered by Palpatine) could also be part of the basis for phasing clones out in favor of drafting troops. Palpatine could order his troops to brutally suppress dissenters, then feign sorrow and outrage, all while moving his agenda forward behind the scenes.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri May 23, 2014 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | When I look at RW social dynamics, I use four different lenses, drawn from four social sciences: sociology, cultural anthropology, economics and political science. That paranoia of some enemy or traitor - that's pure sociology right there. The Imperial claim on the monopoly on the use of force within its claimed jurisdiction, that's political science. More on culture and economy in a bit. |
It's worth noting that Palpatine, as the heir to the legacy of the Sith, is also heir to thousands of years of experience in the weaknesses and failings of living beings. As such, he is well equipped to be a manipulator the likes of nothing ever seen in real life. Every facet you mentioned is something he would be intimately familiar with and very capable of using to twist to his own ends. This would tie in with overconfidence being his weakness; when you are that good, the bar dividing confidence and overconfidence is set very, very high.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
EDIT: Atrocities committed by clones (as ordered by Palpatine) could also be part of the basis for phasing clones out in favor of drafting troops. Palpatine could order his troops to brutally suppress dissenters, then feign sorrow and outrage, all while moving his agenda forward behind the scenes. |
That brings up a good point. If the clones DID serve on the winning side (the galactic republic) why was it that they were so loathed through out the galaxy? Was it CAUSE they were allowed to commit atrocities? Or was it something else?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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That's what I was thinking. It's even possible that the Kaminoans inserted hidden programming into the clones to keep them from being used on themselves, or even to turn them against the Republic as a last resort.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Just wanted to chime in that I've really been enjoying reading the commentary here.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | That's what I was thinking. It's even possible that the Kaminoans inserted hidden programming into the clones to keep them from being used on themselves, or even to turn them against the Republic as a last resort. |
Which might reason why Palpy went with Sparrti tanks in mount Tannis rather than Kamino tanks.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | That's what I was thinking. It's even possible that the Kaminoans inserted hidden programming into the clones to keep them from being used on themselves, or even to turn them against the Republic as a last resort. |
Which might reason why Palpy went with Sparrti tanks in mount Tannis rather than Kamino tanks. |
A definite possibility. It's possible that the Kaminoans didn't get a chance to program contingency orders into all their clones, but once they saw the direction the Republic was moving, its possible they managed to reprogram a sizeable percentage; enough to start a whole new round of Clone Wars, but clone against clone this time. Palpatine would've needed new troops and fast, so a new method of rapidly producing clones as an interim measure until the draft could produce a sizeable pool of personnel to supplant and eventually replace them.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | | Great post, the only point I would add is that the corruption of the "UN" type Republic would feed into the cultural issues. |
Thanks and ggreed, though putting my social science hat on, I'd word it differently, but it basically comes down to the same thing. In the culture of the Old Republic - by which I mean the culture of intergalactic civilization writ large (assuming exceptions for different species and less cosmopolitan groups) there would have been a narrow rationalism, which is free to seek monetary spoils in the absence of an overwhelming security threat.
There was probably plenty of high-minded rhetoric, but people were probably fairly cynical about it, unless people were naive or had such luxury that they didn't fathom the social underbelly. (I'm thinking of people like Amidala and some of her compatriots as being in this category.)
| lurker wrote: | | That said, I also think there would have been 'good' planetary governments that become separatists and therefor be on the' bad' side of the war. Which just further feeds into the sith's plans, but that is a different rabbit to chase. |
I would also agree to that, though it would depend on what sort of story you want to tell. I prefer a gameworld with more shades of gray than Star Wars tends to portray.
| crmcneill wrote: | | lurker wrote: | | So, now back to the start. what tools would the Empire use to keep this cycle going? Becides the obvious ... |
More clone wars, suppressing the fractured but still hostile separatist remnants, fighting this time against beings, not droids.
Strawman operations, using special forces to engage in terrorist acts which are then blamed on separatist / republican rebels to exercise greater control.
Biological warfare waged against friendly populations (ala V for Vendetta) for the same reasons as above...
EDIT: Atrocities committed by clones (as ordered by Palpatine) could also be part of the basis for phasing clones out in favor of drafting troops. Palpatine could order his troops to brutally suppress dissenters, then feign sorrow and outrage, all while moving his agenda forward behind the scenes. |
I'd subscribe to all of that.
| crmcneill wrote: | | It's worth noting that Palpatine, as the heir to the legacy of the Sith, is also heir to thousands of years of experience in the weaknesses and failings of living beings. As such, he is well equipped to be a manipulator the likes of nothing ever seen in real life. Every facet you mentioned is something he would be intimately familiar with and very capable of using to twist to his own ends. This would tie in with overconfidence being his weakness; when you are that good, the bar dividing confidence and overconfidence is set very, very high. |
Yes, though I would say that all of the corruption of the Old Republic and the fear and terror of the Empire notwithstanding, I'd also say that the Emperor has a blind spot - indeed it's the high-minded people that he has a hard time fathoming, just like he underestimates Luke in RotJ, as well as Vader. At a more macro level, he underestimates the Rebel Alliance, and their members' ability to put the ultimate goal ahead of their own lives. He would probably have viewed that as a counter-indoctrination. I'll leave it to you to decide if there is honest-to-God goodness in people, or if we're just all indoctrinated automatons of one stripe or another.  |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say there are enough "Lemmings" out there for the Empire to control, that while he was around, the rebellion was having to counter what was indoctrination in the populous.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I'd say there are enough "Lemmings" out there for the Empire to control, that while he was around, the rebellion was having to counter what was indoctrination in the populous. |
That would be the bailiwick of the Alliance's Ministry of Education (see page 18-19 of the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook). It also ties in with the Interstellar Communications topic...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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This article seems to cover what you guys have been talking about with regards to Kamino.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kamino_uprising
Kamino ended up rebelling 12 BBY.
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lurker
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I'd say there are enough "Lemmings" out there for the Empire to control, that while he was around, the rebellion was having to counter what was indoctrination in the populous. |
That would be the bailiwick of the Alliance's Ministry of Education (see page 18-19 of the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook). It also ties in with the Interstellar Communications topic... |
Good point, that got me thinking. What other tools would the rebels use to counter
| crmcneill wrote: |
More clone wars, suppressing the fractured but still hostile separatist remnants, fighting this time against beings, not droids.
Strawman operations, using special forces to engage in terrorist acts which are then blamed on separatist / republican rebels to exercise greater control.
Biological warfare waged against friendly populations (ala V for Vendetta) for the same reasons as above...
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Ministry of Education could go so far, but what else. These are areas that force and military conflict would actually be counter productive. For this ... MLK Jr, and Gandhi tactics would work better, but ...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Somehow, I don't think that passive resistance tactics would work against an Empire that is willing to blow up entire planets to make a point...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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lurker
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Somehow, I don't think that passive resistance tactics would work against an Empire that is willing to blow up entire planets to make a point... |
Rgr there, thus the but ....
However, as I thought about it, that could be one of his blind spots ... He cannot see or expect the power of self sacrifice. How sacrifice will influence the common populous that he always have to have afraid etc.
No it may not defeat Palp directly , but it could be one of the elements that feed to the 'systems slipping through his fingers'.
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