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DougRed4
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 Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | True, though was it the 501 who took Leia's ship? |
It was never specifically stated, but the ISD Devastator was the destroyer that captured the Tantive IV, and it was Vader's personal ship, so it makes sense that the stormtrooper detatchment aboard Vader's personal ship would be the 501st. |
Though of course it's not official (or canon), Wookieepedia (and the Star Wars CCG, of which I used to be lead designer) named this Imperial Commander as Daine Jir, and he indeed was a Commander of the 501st.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
That depends on the rank of that underling. Black uniforms signified command of stormtrooper units, and since Vader had the 501st ("Vader's Own") assigned directly to his command, this officer might've been one of their senior commanders, with sufficient experience working directly with Vader that he could speak candidly to Darth Vader without fearing (too much) for his life. |
I'll buy that, although I still think there was a bit of a retcon with Vader's status in the latter films.
I always thought that Vader's habit of choking people to death was less due to being talked back to but more a case of his hating stupidity and incompetence.
Tarkin was apparently neither incompetent or stupid (although the Battle of Yavin strongly suggests both), was loyal, and dedicated to the New Order. He even appears to be be one of Vader's few friends.
But...Vader's status as the Number Two man in the Empire also raises some other questions. Like why was such an important person chasing after the stolen plans personally?
It really looks like Vader was the Emperor's "go to guy". Perhaps his position in the Imperial Hierarchy wasn't really clearly defined. Yeah, he was the Emperor's right hand man, and his Enforcer; yeah he had his own troops and was in charge of hunting down any Jedi that showed up - but maybe his actual role wasn't spelled out specifically. Kinda like when the Boss' favorite relative shows up at work. Everyone knows he doesn't actually work there, but they also know he's the boss' favorite relative, and he has a lot of pull with the boss. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I see Vader's role very much how you've desribed it, at. And yeah, I think there was a bit of retconning, after they moved into the sequels.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: |
Actually that was my impression first time I saw the film, which I recall well, and it was before too much EU had confused the mixing bowl. There seemed to me to be an "off screen subplot" about Vader being given over to Tarkin's disposal, the definite inferrence is the Emperor protecting his power with assassins in every corner, at the same time placating senior commanders like Tarkin with the illusion of power. It seemed to describe the Death Star and what it represented, including the analogy of "rebellion against an evil galactic empire", the many cynical associations with every scene involving the Death Star funding an atmosphere which forms a backdrop for the clearly black and white themes of the tale. |
Leia's comment about Tarkin holding Vader's leash only makes sense if Tarkin had (or was perceived to have had) the authority to do so.
Of course part of the problem is that quite a few things seemed to have been changed in the films along the way. It leaves a lot of unanswered questions. For instance, why does Palpatine switch from ruling by manipulation and deception to ruling by open subjugation and fear?
He was so good at manipulation and deception, and it had served him so well. Or was the whole New Order/Death Star thing yet another deception? |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, you can tell from the body language and way the two interacted that Vader at least respected Tarkin. And I always note the speed he (literally) obeys with when Tarkin says "Release him!" (when Vader is choking Motti), to which Vader replies "..as you wish."
I think Palpatine always used lots of deception and manipulation, all through the series. The Death Star was the start of a new era of ruling by fear ("fear will keep the local systems in line..."), but he was always conniving and manipulating things behind the scenes, even amongst his most loyal subjects.
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Ral_Brelt
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Keep in mind that before the prequels, the Death Star was *Tarkins* idea. As was the Doctrine of Fear. He could have simply been Palpy's current favorite, thus Vader's hop to attitude. He may have been there by Palpy's command to support Tarkin. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Ral_Brelt wrote: | | Keep in mind that before the prequels, the Death Star was *Tarkins* idea. As was the Doctrine of Fear. He could have simply been Palpy's current favorite, thus Vader's hop to attitude. He may have been there by Palpy's command to support Tarkin. |
If we take the Clone Wars shows as authoritative, Anakin and Tarkin go way back. They've probably been partners in crime for a very long time, and maybe that means that Tarkin was simply able to command Vader's respect more out of personal prestige with Vader than with his rank and title. |
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72Grabber
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: |
That depends on the rank of that underling. Black uniforms signified command of stormtrooper units, and since Vader had the 501st ("Vader's Own") assigned directly to his command, this officer might've been one of their senior commanders, with sufficient experience working directly with Vader that he could speak candidly to Darth Vader without fearing (too much) for his life. |
I'll buy that, although I still think there was a bit of a retcon with Vader's status in the latter films.
I always thought that Vader's habit of choking people to death was less due to being talked back to but more a case of his hating stupidity and incompetence.
Tarkin was apparently neither incompetent or stupid (although the Battle of Yavin strongly suggests both), was loyal, and dedicated to the New Order. He even appears to be be one of Vader's few friends.
But...Vader's status as the Number Two man in the Empire also raises some other questions. Like why was such an important person chasing after the stolen plans personally?
It really looks like Vader was the Emperor's "go to guy". Perhaps his position in the Imperial Hierarchy wasn't really clearly defined. Yeah, he was the Emperor's right hand man, and his Enforcer; yeah he had his own troops and was in charge of hunting down any Jedi that showed up - but maybe his actual role wasn't spelled out specifically. Kinda like when the Boss' favorite relative shows up at work. Everyone knows he doesn't actually work there, but they also know he's the boss' favorite relative, and he has a lot of pull with the boss. |
That's why it's best to just watch the first movie without trying to make the others fit. Star Wars was just Star Wars when it was released. No Episode IV at the beginning crawl and no later movies with changes to the characters cluttering up anything. The retcon with Vader was between SW and ESB when he was written to be Luke's father. Everything Obi Wan tells Luke in the first movie about his father and Vader killing him was the truth at the point it was written.
Between SW and ESB:
Vader becomes Luke's father. Lucas and the writers thought it was more dramatic.
The Emperor becomes a force user. Not just a corrupt politician.
Vader due to his huge popularity with fans is now written as far more feared and respected by everyone. The other Sith and the Sith order are pretty much written out of the original movies at that point.
The Jedi and yet unnamed in the movies Sith gain more supernatural/mystical powers.
For ESB he turned almost all control over to director Irvin Kershner. and writers like sci fi writer Leigh Brackett. As he had originally intended for all the sequels to be directed and written by others who would add to the story. Lucas would just be a producer and supervising writer at that point.
Then due to all the frustration, production problems, and budget overruns Lucas had with the makers of ESB he decided to end the series at three movies and took control of the project back. He decided to wrap the whole thing up in one movie. So with one loose end from ESB to tie up.....
Between ESB and ROTJ:
Leia becomes Luke's sister. And the other mentioned by Yoda. And Lucas hopes we forget "the kiss" 
But as far as Imperial bureaucracy goes I guess it depends on what movie you base it on. As for your game I don't think there is any wrong answer. Do whatever you can get the most players to agree on. Or just do it your way and explain it to em'. My game's lore was that the Emperor was not a Sith. He was a dark side master from an unnamed secret order that united the Sith order with his cause. The Sith removed all opposition to Emperor Palpatine. And were in turn supported by the new order in wiping out their ancient enemy the Jedi. For whatever reason Vader was the only Sith to survive. Maybe he and the Emperor killed off the remaining Sith after they thought the Jedi to be no more. Buuuuut then the prequels came out during an 8 year break from my original game and all the same players came back with the new Star Wars history as explained by the prequels burning in their brains. So I had to retcon my game a little to fit in the clone wars happening 10-15 years sooner and an army of droids
As for the original Grand Moff vs Moff question. I still think cannon wise Tarkin was the only one. The second Death Star was commanded by Moff Jerjerrod. Though in the original draft he was a Grand Moff like Tarkin. And was tasked with keeping Vader in check. As the Emperor didn't trust Vader at this point. So at the very least I think only one Grand Moff exists at a time. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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When I watch that scene, I see subtext. Vader is a non-bureaucratic type who likes to work outside the rules and get results. Tarkin is a master of the bureaucratic. When Vader chokes admiral Motti, he's removing what he sees as a block to effective action, a big-headed admiral who doesn't respect his intuitive style of leadership. Tarkin, however, walks in and sees Vader choking out (another?) one of his very expensive and difficult to replace admirals, a key piece in the logistics of ruling the Outer Rim. Nevertheless, they do respect one-another and may be friends.
"Vader, release him" is not, I believe, so much an order as a "please stop breaking my admirals, you said you weren't gonna do that anymore, bro." Vader doesn't have self esteem issues where he must kill everyone who challenges his decisions. He has issues with people who jeopardize his objectives. Thus he is open to criticism of his orders by people qualified to do so, provided they will follow them if/when he does not change his mind.
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lurker
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: |
...
"Vader, release him" is not, I believe, so much an order as a "please stop breaking my admirals, you said you weren't gonna do that anymore, bro." .... |
Rgr, that is how I've always pictured it myself
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Na.. Since Tarkin is British upper class he would be more like
:Stop that now vader.. That force choking thinggy is just so uncouth!
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Moving this over from the Interstellar Communications thread, to prevent it from getting out of bounds.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | Well, one thing that probably is worth considering is the business element. While the Empire is a big powerful dictatorship, it also has a big powerful corperate presence. Now I would expect that those corporations would not be happy if there were high speed comm systems for the military but not for them. It could cost them billions upon billions. |
Good point, though I wonder about the power of those corporations in comparison to the Emperor's need to choke free speech. I'm not saying that the corporations are not powerful; I just wonder about them in relation to COMPNOR. Also, I believe that COMPNOR and the corporations are incestuously intertwined with one another. In that respect, I think your piggy-back theory is very well taken. More than likely, the favored corporations use the HoloNet for their business, and the unfavored corporations can just suck it.
In a political-economic system like the Empire, I think it's important to throw Adam Smith into the trash because of two features:
Politically, it's not a truly multi-state system - it's manifestly hegemonic Empire.
Economically, there is no honest competition for efficiency. It's an oligopoly of firms that do not compete for efficiency, they compete for political favor. |
But I don't think the Empire is quite as powerful politically. From what I see in the films, it isn't quite the iron fisted dominant monster it wants to be. It has to run a hearts & minds campaing to keep going, and make all sorts of secret deals to keep going.
Especially if we follow the EU, where there is a Cooperate Sector that is practically an autonomous entity. To get that level of freedom the corps have to have a lot of clout. And it must obviously have it own communcations network, right?
Think how long the Empire would last if companies like KDY and Sienar were to stop producing ships for the military.
There really is a practical limit to how much brute force an oppressive regime can use. It's much easier, in the long run, to get people to join you willingly than to take and control them entirely by brute force. I think all the major corporations are favored by the Empire to some extent (otherwise they become a potential threat, and worse still they know it), and routinely played off against each other to keep them in check. I suspect all the corporations have their own communications networks and said networks are infiltrated and hacked into by spies working for rival corporations and the Empire. It's just that sorta Galaxy. |
I agree that there are practical limitations on the oppressiveness of a regime. However, I think you mistake my meaning.
When I say 'hegemonic' I mean that. It doesn't have total control. There are substantially autonomous areas in the known galaxy. However, let's not kid ourselves. That doesn't mean that the Empire isn't hegemonic in the known galaxy. Those portions of the galaxy that are autonomous (e.g. Corporate Sector, Hutt Space, Hapes Cluster) because it's easier for the Empire to let them run themselves. If, however, any of those territories or the powers within them were to become more annoying than not having to administer the areas are worth, then I have no doubt that the Empire would pound it quick and hard. They exist autonomously because the Empire lets them.
In terms of the degree of totalitarianism within those areas directly governed by the Empire, I agree with Crmcneill that the Empire is not like North Korea. As I mentioned earlier/elsewhere, I do think that it resembles Maoist China in terms of its degree of totalitarianism, though maybe not industrial policy.
If KDY or Sienar were to stop producing ships for the Empire, the Empire would quickly nationalize them or hand control over to more willing oligarchs. Those responsible for ceasing production would be summarily executed. That's my view though. You disagree? |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | If KDY or Sienar were to stop producing ships for the Empire, the Empire would quickly nationalize them or hand control over to more willing oligarchs. Those responsible for ceasing production would be summarily executed. That's my view though. You disagree? |
I complete agree, Mikael.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
If KDY or Sienar were to stop producing ships for the Empire, the Empire would quickly nationalize them or hand control over to more willing oligarchs. Those responsible for ceasing production would be summarily executed. That's my view though. You disagree? |
I agree with the idea, but not with the ease of implementation.
It's not quite that simple. KDY and Sienar produce the very weapons that the Empire needs to quickly nationalize them. So if a major corp were to revolt it could cause serious difficulties. Especially if they were smart and used thier own power against the Empire, trashed existing facilities, and high tailed it out of there, like Incomm did.
Plus with KDY, they are pretty much run by the Kuat Families, and are a major fanicial and political power block.
Taking the Kuat system, while possible, wouldn't be all that easy. The system can probably muster enough ships to require the Empire to divert a fairly large force to try and secure it, and the ship yards and other facility would be destroyed long before the Empire could secure them.
Plkus there would be the political consequnces for the Empire to act so heavy handed. Remember how the dissolution of the Imperial Senate was such a big deal in ANH?
Now Palpy kept the senate for 20 years for some reasons. Basically he needed the support of the populace to keep the Empire going.
The thing is with the Empire is that it isn't simply a military dictatorship. We've see the evidence for that in the prequels and EU. The Empire is partially run and mostly financed by the corporations, who still wield considerable influence. The military doesn't always get to do what it wants.
The core systems, and major players get a lot more freedom and a better lifestyle than those on the fringe. That's why there are so many loyal Imperials who actually believe in the Empire. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | It's not quite that simple. KDY and Sienar produce the very weapons that the Empire needs to quickly nationalize them. So if a major corp were to revolt it could cause serious difficulties. Especially if they were smart and used thier own power against the Empire, trashed existing facilities, and high tailed it out of there, like Incomm did. |
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You have some good arguments here, but (IMO) this is not one of them. To put this in economic terms, I think you're mistaking the stock for the flow. Sure, KDY and Sienar are where the Empire gets their platforms from. But if either of these shut off production (the flow), that doesn't mean that the Navy doesn't have a big stock of materiel that they've already purchased.
Also, would Sienar and KDY really withhold production over a communications issue?
Furthermore, comparing Incom vs. Sienar/KDY is like comparing 7-11 with Gazprom.
Your good point, however, is about the nature of the Empire as a regime, and I fully agree that there is room for different interpretations - including different legitimate interpretations within the SWU itself (ie. in-character). Power is a tricky concept, and to believe that it's only based on economics and hardware is a crucial mistake.
I also agree that the Empire isn't a military state, and that it features a powerful industrial complex. However, the military-industrial complex is not the center of gravity of power in the regime. It's not a military-industrial dictatorship. It's a single-party totalitarian state. The power isn't in the military; it's in the party, and in the Emperor's nightmare regime of the ISB combined with Vader and his mystical acolytes.
In terms of popular support, I'm evolving on this matter a bit. The citizens who's popular support matters are the core-world humans. free-thinkers in that population either are already in witht eh rebellion, or they know enough about what is going on to keep their heads down. However, huge portions of the populace honestly buy the notion that if it weren't for the strong Empire, with its strong leader, the galaxy would succumb to the forces of separatism and alien influence. |
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