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jamz
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 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Some Dune spoilers ahead.
Some aspects of Dune seem – from a perspective of power mechanics – just as logical and obvious things to do, like the gene gesserit program, the attempt to harness the powers and control the direction of human evolution. I think the bene gesserit breeding program would work in star wars. It is established that the force can be strong in families. An organisation with members with the power of the force and with control over their seeds and eggs could be very powerful – if it has a strong code like the jedi order and avoids the self-destructiveness of the dark side. but maybe this technical handling just for the sake of power would make them prone to fall to the dark side. but then – what makes the story of dune so controversial and good – we always have legitimations for such power play in dune.
A question would be, could the central themes be ported to star wars? The ability to see in the future, to perceive threats to the survival of the galaxy's races and to avoid them with plans that take millenia to accomplish – these are the main powers of the bene gesserit breeding program: The birth of a force using super-being which controls the whole known universe – and hopefully is controllable by the bene gesserit organisation. While the time frame seems too big for star wars – the dune franchise encompasses nearly 30000 years in the future of our present time –, the universe and factions of dune, while exotic and powerful, seem to small compared to star wars. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| jamz wrote: | | Some Dune spoilers ahead. |
That's very considerate of you, but Dune came out in 1965.
| jamz wrote: | Some aspects of Dune seem – from a perspective of power mechanics – just as logical and obvious things to do, like the gene gesserit program, the attempt to harness the powers and control the direction of human evolution. I think the bene gesserit breeding program would work in star wars. It is established that the force can be strong in families. An organisation with members with the power of the force and with control over their seeds and eggs could be very powerful – if it has a strong code like the jedi order and avoids the self-destructiveness of the dark side. but maybe this technical handling just for the sake of power would make them prone to fall to the dark side. but then – what makes the story of dune so controversial and good – we always have legitimations for such power play in dune.
A question would be, could the central themes be ported to star wars? The ability to see in the future, to perceive threats to the survival of the galaxy's races and to avoid them with plans that take millenia to accomplish – these are the main powers of the bene gesserit breeding program: The birth of a force using super-being which controls the whole known universe – and hopefully is controllable by the bene gesserit organisation. While the time frame seems too big for star wars – the dune franchise encompasses nearly 30000 years in the future of our present time –, the universe and factions of dune, while exotic and powerful, seem to small compared to star wars. |
The Republic is 25,000 years old, so I don't think I follow your comments about the time span seeming to bog for Star Wars.
Any organization trying to create a super-being to control is too concerned with power to avoid the Dark Side. What controversial legitimations are given for this endeavor in the novel? I have no memory of that.
Dune was an inspiration for Star Wars, but SW's Kwisatz Haderach was Anakin Skywalker, the "Chosen One" of a Jedi prophecy. You could say that he was the result of a bloodline which something like the ancient Bene Gesserit sect may have lost control of, which lead to Shmi Skywalker, but there would then still be the midi-chlorian conception of Anakin. This could be another layer of background to the EU in which Darth Plagueis' experiment with the Force unknowingly remotely caused Anakin's conception in Shmi. And we can still all say it was the 'will of the Force' every step of the way. Of course in SW, the messiah sacrifices his life immediately after embracing his role, so even if this SW Bene Gesserit is still around, they have no super-being to manipulate. But maybe they still have some bloodlines and they are still trying to make one? Maybe they insist Anakin wasn't, or they don't even know about him.
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jamz
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The Republic is 25,000 years old, so I don't think I follow your comments about the time span seeming to big for Star Wars. |
Yes, of course, but in Dune it really feels weird and alien. You can believe it is a realistic portrayal of a future very far removed (and with no memory of earth) of mankind. I mean, there are no computers but (trans?)human mentats, there are no pilots but genetically modified grotesque looking guild navigators. All factions try to outsmart each others with their specialities, which usually means pushing the boundary of the definition of being human.
| Quote: | | Any organization trying to create a super-being to control is too concerned with power to avoid the Dark Side. What controversial legitimations are given for this endeavor in the novel? I have no memory of that. |
This is right, but this attempt to create a human with such psychic powers to foresee possible futures created an ultimate protector of mankind. Leto 2 foresaw that Ixian hunter-seeker machines would eradicate all human life in a point in the future. Also he sees, that mankind would never be free, if its future could be seen with prophetic powers. Thus after symbiotically uniting himself with an arrakis worm, he gains thousands of years increased lifetime (before the worm would take him over) and he begins his rule over mankind. In this time he breeds a no-gene into mankind which hides it from prophetic vision and controol. Also he exerts a rule in which mankind would not be allowed to have various freedoms e.g. of movement, they couldnt leave their planets. He cultivated the thirst for freedom so that when he ends his reign, mankind would explode and scatter for all times into space, never being vulnerable as a species anymore and never bowing to an oppressive rule again. This is all concluded in Book 4, god emperor of dune. all books before are prelude, all after sequels, sometimes thousands of years later.
Frank Herbert once stated, he wrote the books to warn about the danger of charismatic leaders. But with this background Leto II's actions are so far removed from human experience that they are hard to judge morally. Maybe it is even a disadvantage of the conception, but it's a really good story and an absolute power fantasy.
(But there are some restrictions to him. Leto II cannot see all details and he avoids to see too much into his future as he discovers beings need the illusion to be free and to be surprised. A good thing for him is, that he can access the consciousnesses of all his human ancestors and discover the real history and personalities of mankind. He often laughs about historians, could be that he banished and killed them too. Leto II also isn't just good, even if you keep his goal in mind. Sometimes his worm-nature overtakes him, if he is attacked or endangered – there are some secret dangers to him, of which nobody really certainly knows. To make it more complicated – Leto II knows that he sacrificed part of his humanity, that he is an abomination, and he often thinks about his past as full human. He is kind of depressed and gets a girlfriend after many thousand years – which is a scandal in his court. A girl which was genetically engineered by his enemies to be what he likes. He knows it, she knows it. Unfortunately – you know how I mean it – their relationship has to remain somewhat platonic. So he is a tragic figure.)
It could be interesting to see, how this would work with the force and the dark side (minus the obvious cruel things).
| Quote: | | Dune was an inspiration for Star Wars, but SW's Kwisatz Haderach was Anakin Skywalker, the "Chosen One" of a Jedi prophecy. You could say that he was the result of a bloodline which something like the ancient Bene Gesserit sect may have lost control of, which lead to Shmi Skywalker, but there would then still be the midi-chlorian conception of Anakin. This could be another layer of background to the EU in which Darth Plagueis' experiment with the Force unknowingly remotely caused Anakin's conception in Shmi. And we can still all say it was the 'will of the Force' every step of the way. Of course in SW, the messiah sacrifices his life immediately after embracing his role, so even if this SW Bene Gesserit is still around, they have no super-being to manipulate. But maybe they still have some bloodlines and they are still trying to make one? Maybe they insist Anakin wasn't, or they don't even know about him. |
Compared to Dune, Star wars' story is much more open to interpretation. What I like about it, and what I often find downplayed or relativized: it is a story of good struggling against galaxy dominating evil, but good having the force on its side. That is all which is needed to make good stories. (And there is of course all this cool stuff.)
I too think Anakin was created by Plagueis and I would like to see this becoming canon. This would explain the virgin birth. Unlike the Kwisatz Haderach, Anakin never ever got control or insight over himself up to the end. Watching the last episode of the clone wars I also thought a main plot was the race for Jedi and Sith to get Immortality – as Force Ghosts, or with Plagueis' and Sidious' plan to get those galactic ressources and Clone-Tech.
Dune btw was a reaction to Asimovs Foundation, which streams right now (which may have been mentioned in this thread, I am reading too many..), other space opera inspired by it would be the Moebius comics The Incal and Metabarons of which there is a WEG-d6-rpg. Ironically, I really don't know if it could work well to play a rpg in the setting of Dune (which exists too), while I think Star Wars works much better. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jamz wrote: | | ...A question would be, could the central themes be ported to star wars? |
You seem to be explaining how Star Wars is incompatible with Dune. For a Star Wars GM to include some inspirations from Dune in their Star Wars game (beyond what Lucas already has), it is not necessary to port the "central themes" of Dune to Star Wars. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can pick and choose some aspects of Dune to base things on like I do, or even make an entire section of space based on the Duniverse as CRM brought up for discussion. Either way, it won't be porting anything as-is. It will be an adaptation of Dune to the SWU. If the mere thought of either leaves a bad taste in your mouth, then just don't do it for your game. Other GMs may be inspired to do so.
I personally wouldn't do the latter because for me, the central theme of the Star Wars game is Rebels vs. the Empire. Before I'd go to the trouble of trying to make Dune in Star Wars, I'd play Metabarons or Hellas: Worlds of Sun & Stone or...
| jamz wrote: | | ...Dune btw was a reaction to Asimovs Foundation, which streams right now (which may have been mentioned in this thread, I am reading too many..), other space opera inspired by it would be the Moebius comics The Incal and Metabarons of which there is a WEG-d6-rpg. Ironically, I really don't know if it could work well to play a rpg in the setting of Dune (which exists too), while I think Star Wars works much better. |
I have the latest Dune RPG but haven't had the time to dig into yet. It uses the 2d20 system which also powers the current Star Trek RPG. It is described as cinematic and action oriented, but I do not know if it works well.
I'm not really too interested in playing Dune. I bought it mainly for possible inspiration for my Star Wars game (mainly fluff and art).
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I'm not really too interested in playing Dune. I bought it mainly for possible inspiration for my Star Wars game (mainly fluff and art). |
I tend to agree. Dune as a whole is just too deep to cross over into the SWU without gutting the essential mythos and underlying themes. I have no problem with raiding it for ideas, but sometimes, a full crossover just isn't possible. A Dune-like setting is feasible, but it'd be a pale shadow of the real thing.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I'm not really too interested in playing Dune. I bought it mainly for possible inspiration for my Star Wars game (mainly fluff and art). |
I tend to agree. Dune as a whole is just too deep to cross over into the SWU without gutting the essential mythos and underlying themes. I have no problem with raiding it for ideas, but sometimes, a full crossover just isn't possible. A Dune-like setting is feasible, but it'd be a pale shadow of the real thing. |
Any else remember Fading Suns? It was heavily Dune-inspired (and also Warhammer 40k, with some Star Wars and Babylon 5 and a bunch of other stuff).
But what would be important in a Dune-inspired game? Competing houses? Some analogy to spice? Giant underground monsters?
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jamz
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But what would be important in a Dune-inspired game? Competing houses? Some analogy to spice? Giant underground monsters? |
And also: Is the setting of dune what makes it so special or the story? The story is focused on Paul Atreides and his son Leto II. In book 2 it is discovered, that a clone can regain his memories of past lives when brought into a traumatic situation. Since then a major Atreides follower, Duncan Idaho, is cloned and also takes part in the following books and in a story encompassing several thousand years. The other characters are family members of the Atreides and members of the factions.
So we have a setting, but presented over several thousand years, and then it changes with technological/genetical evolutionary steps, changing the power balance. Some of them lose control of their creations (like the bene gesserit with the kwisatz haderach), the Bene Tleilax (aka Tleilaxu) are master geneticists, they can infiltrate whole planets with shapeshifters they created. And these shapeshipters are even able to copy memories and consciousness of their victims. But then we learn at one point, that there are rogue shapeshifters which killed their tleilaxu masters and took their knowledge.
These things which are supertechnologies and superweapons in other settings, – which serve as a single mcguffin in a whole story arc – they are all implanted in the factions of dune and then in even more extreme versions, and even in grotesque ways. The Tleilaxu genetic ability stems from the fact – it is a secret in the setting – that they reengineered all of their females into cloning tanks.
And as a reader you only get glimpses too, but it all points into really disturbing areas. For example in the last books humanity and parts of each faction venture into unknown regions. but then something happens and they start to come back. Some of them melted and created new factions with new powerful and impressive abilities, but then we see, that they lost abilities too which they now want to reestablish. But the real reason why they are coming back is because of a new threat for them. It turns out it is a species of feline hunters, creatures that are genetically engineered from cats and humans by a faction to kill this one faction. And in a little sentence we read, that they can be controlled with sexual techniques..
I think the power mechanics are definitively central to dune's story. But before you could emulate something like this in a star wars rpg, you would have to establish the balance of (inter- or extra-) galactic political power first, each with their expertises and secrets. This would be no easy task. You would want to have a stable system. In dune the importance of the spice for the spacer guild and the fact that there was just one source were the reason for millenia of stability. But then you would want to be able to shake the whole system up and see what new order might emerge from it. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not that knowledgeable about Dune, but as I've been prepping some stuff from the Tapani Sector stuff into my SW games, it strikes me that the writers of that WEG material must have drawn some inspiration from Dune. It's full of warring noble houses (of humans or near humans).
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Definitely.
| MrNexx wrote: | | Any else remember Fading Suns? It was heavily Dune-inspired (and also Warhammer 40k, with some Star Wars and Babylon 5 and a bunch of other stuff). |
Vaguely. Now I kinda want it.
| MrNexx wrote: | | But what would be important in a Dune-inspired game? Competing houses? Some analogy to spice? Giant underground monsters? |
What would be important would be anything that inspires the GM, like any other inspirations.
| jamz wrote: | | Is the setting of dune what makes it so special or the story? The story is focused on Paul Atreides and his son Leto II. In book 2 it is discovered... |
Like any franchise, layers and layers backstory and other new continuity kept getting added to Dune over time. Talking about Dune isn't all or nothing. I've noticed that you are heavily invested in the sequels as if they are part of a single whole. There was a time when the original novel was the only Dune there is. Leto II and a lot of the other stuff you keep bringing up did not exist yet in the first novel, so it is not fundamental to Dune. It is perfectly acceptable to only be inspired by the original novel.
For example, Vader was not originally intended to be Luke's father. Originally, Vader really killed Luke's father and Obi-Wan told the truth. The first draft of TESB screenplay had Luke's father appear as a ghost on Dagobah. It is certainly the case that the entire rest of the franchise after TESB is based on Vader being Anakin. But does this retcon have any real impact on ANH? No, not really. ANH doesn't need Vader=Anakin. ANH is completely standalone from the rest of the franchise. ANH was originally called Star Wars, and there were no episode numbers or subtitles.
The original Dune novel is still called Dune. Everything else is an expansion, even the original Frank Herbert sequels.
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jamz
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Like any franchise, layers and layers backstory and other new continuity kept getting added to Dune over time. Talking about Dune isn't all or nothing. I've noticed that you are heavily invested in the sequels as if they are part of a single whole. There was a time when the original novel was the only Dune there is. Leto II and a lot of the other stuff you keep bringing up did not exist yet in the first novel, so it is not fundamental to Dune. It is perfectly acceptable to only be inspired by the original novel.
…
The original Dune novel is still called Dune. Everything else is an expansion, even the original Frank Herbert sequels. |
I can see why one can view it like this. The original Dune is the most accessible and complete novel. It has a hero's journey, it has much action and it concludes with the fall of an empire.
The 2nd one is a bit hard to read through. So it is a hurdle and the readers expectations are subverted. The hero of the first book now becomes a broken man. Even if one doesn't like it, at least it breaks with the formula. And this goes on with the other books. Book 4 is really big and consists mostly of the thoughts and observations of a transhuman ruler, it's more like philosophic memoirs. The remaining two are so far in the future again, it is shocking, if you don't expect it. The thing is, it really grows. At the beginning you read the first, then if you read further, the first 3 form a unit (two generations). But later if you let it sink in, the other books offer so much more scope and become interesting for later rereadings.
Last edited by jamz on Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | Definitely.
| MrNexx wrote: | | Any else remember Fading Suns? It was heavily Dune-inspired (and also Warhammer 40k, with some Star Wars and Babylon 5 and a bunch of other stuff). |
Vaguely. Now I kinda want it.
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$15 for a PDF.
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Whill
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Fading Suns |
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| Whill wrote: | | Is that the best edition to get? |
Whoops. That's not even the one I know.
Second Edition, Revised.
Same cover. I'd say 2eR is the best edition of what Drivethru has... but the other two are 2e and d20, so...
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Whill
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | There's also a recent "Fading Suns 4" edition from the current owners of TORG. |
I carry a fair amount of credit from DTRPG. Might have to look into that; I have an old fondness for the game.
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