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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | I just want to say that the entire last bit that Dromdarr posted makes a lot of sense and seems really plausible to me. |
Of course, his premise pre-supposes that the Senate would have sufficient power to oppose the Jedi. After all, the Jedi are still the commanding generals of the Clone Armies (Order 66 having not yet been issued), and had already discussed the possibility of temporarily removing the Senate from power (see the ROTS novel), plus they would likely have the support of the loyalist faction in the Senate. In the event of a power struggle, the Jedi would have the stronger position.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16345
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Try reading Star Wars fan fiction for What If? Concepts. Lots of well- detailed ideas there...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Also, what if someone else found out about order 66 and decided to implement it. |
I believe it wasn't a "secret" order. It was one of a long list of 140 or so orders designed to cover special "what if" situations. The order covered the possibility of the Jedi turning against the Republic. I think Order 65 covered the contingency of the Chancellor turning against the Republic. It just wasn't expected that Order 66 would be used quite that way.
THe surprising part was how easy it was for Palpatine to get the clones to carry it out. I'm not sure if that was just because of the clones being conditioned to follow the chain of command and so acted without question, or if some info on the alleged Jedi plot to kill the Chancellor had be supplied to make it go through.
Of course no one other than the Sith were aware that the Chancellor was a Sith lord. |
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Quetzacotl
Commander
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Location: Germany
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Also, what if someone else found out about order 66 and decided to implement it. |
I believe it wasn't a "secret" order. It was one of a long list of 140 or so orders designed to cover special "what if" situations. The order covered the possibility of the Jedi turning against the Republic. I think Order 65 covered the contingency of the Chancellor turning against the Republic. It just wasn't expected that Order 66 would be used quite that way.
THe surprising part was how easy it was for Palpatine to get the clones to carry it out. I'm not sure if that was just because of the clones being conditioned to follow the chain of command and so acted without question, or if some info on the alleged Jedi plot to kill the Chancellor had be supplied to make it go through.
Of course no one other than the Sith were aware that the Chancellor was a Sith lord. |
Sorry I've just now gotten in on this discussion; it's quite interesting.
As for Order 66, it was, in fact, only one of well over a hundred 'contingency' special orders that all the clones had ingrained into them during their creation and training. As far as I've seen, however, no one else knew about these contingency orders; I'm sure that part of the clones' training also included instructions to keep these special orders confidential...otherwise, the Jedi generals would surely have know about them, including the dreaded Order 66, and would have been prepared to counteract it. Palpatine was WAY too cunning, and way too sure of his own powers and machinations, to share that tidbit with anyone - even his own advisers - because to let someone know that bit of information would be to allow the existence of a possible leak of said information, and he couldn't allow that to come about and still operate in the absolute secrecy he constantly maintained.
As for Mace Windu, not only does Vapaad require practitioner to walk that razor-fine line between the light and dark sides of the Force (as did the Battle Master Jedi of the Old Republic), in game terms, Vapaad requires the practitioner to actually have a Dark Side Point. That means that any accurate character write-up of Mace Windu has to include at least one DSP. He most likely had more. However, the act of killing Palpatine has to be looked at in context; specifically, one has to look at his intent. Mace went there, with three other Masters, to arrest the Supreme Chancellor. NOT to kill him. Battle only occurred because Palpatine resisted; the Jedi were well within their rights to defend themselves. And, as is the case with most Sith, they will fight to the death. Especially with the ferocity with which Palpatine attacked them, they all knew they were in a fight to the death. And with what the Masters knew the Sith were capable of, the final showdown between Windu and Palpatine (Mace disarming him and holding him at lightsaber-tip) wasn't so much a case of him falling to the dark side by killing Palpatine. Looking at intent, yes, he intended, at the end of the encounter, to kill Palpatine. But his reasons for doing so were borne of the light side; he knew it'd end a war that was devastating the galaxy, was costing millions of lives, and was draining the financial coffers of all parties involved. Besides that, he also was well aware of the tolls the Sith would take on the galaxy at large; so in his mind (as well as in actuality), he was truly saving the galaxy from an unspeakable evil. He wasn't killing an innocent, and even left unarmed, was too dangerous to leave alive. Put more simply, the overarching goal of the ENTIRE Jedi Order, besides communing with the Force and protecting the galaxy-at-large, is the termination of the Sith; when faced with the choice of killing the Sith Lord, or leaving alive the Sith Lord who may or may not practice such dark arts that the Jedi have no concept of how far-reaching the Sith's abilities truly go, they're gonna kill the Sith Lord and end it right there, no questions asked. Take Anakin's final duel with Dooku; back on Coruscant, Obi Wan was praising Anakin for having killed Dooku, not telling him he shouldn't have done it. The only reason Anakin said "it's not the Jedi way" is because he killed Dooku while he was angry. Sure, Dooku had been disarmed (almost quite literally), but Palpatine was quite right when he said Dooku was too dangerous to leave alive. Anakin did the right thing, just not from the right frame of mind.
Now that I'm off that particular soapbox, the Jedi wouldn't have been usurped, had Windu killed Palpatine. Many of the generals, especially Obi Wan and Anakin, were hailed as heroes throughout the Republic. The Jedi would easily have taken control of the Senate, and the galaxy would have seen it as a benevolent move, especially when the Jedi explained what had happened, and relinquished control of the Senate once a new Chancellor was elected.
I'm also thinking that, in this alternate timeline, the vast majority of the clones would have gone to Mandalore; not just the ARCs and Nulls, but I'm sure these more independent troops would have drawn multitudes of their Mando-trained brethren to join the ranks of the Mandalorians; the Jedi would certainly have pushed for the GAR to be disbanded, citing the lack of need for them with the ending of the war. The Separatist leaders would have been tracked down and destroyed; their great mastermind was Darth Sidious. It can be argued that so was Grievous, however, Obi Wan killed him, so he's out of the picture. With both the big planners out of commission, it'd be a matter of a short time before the rest were caught and dealt with. Since that would herald the end of the need for the GAR, these troops would have found themselves without a job...without a purpose. Mandalore would have gladly taken them all, given them purpose, and swelled their own ranks tremendously to boot. Could mean trouble for the Jedi, but could also mean a new era of understanding between the two groups as well; after all, the Jedi would have been responsible for ending the war and freeing these clone troops to do as they wished. Yes, a lot of Jedi treated the clones as organic droids (disposable), but not all of them were like that. I could see this issue being a hotly debated topic of discussion on Mandalore for years, perhaps even causing rifts amongst clan members and possibly causing new clans to be formed, with some supporting the Jedi and some still holding to the Mandalorians' ancient dealings with the Sith. That facet alone could make for some interesting gameplay.
As for the Anakin/Padme connection, that could go several ways. What comes to mind most strongly is the Jedi holding to the belief that Anakin was the subject of the prophecy, and being the Chosen One. This could either grant him clemency in having broken one of the main tenets of the Jedi Order, or it could possibly have even caused the Order to rethink this policy. Perhaps the balance he was foretold to bring to the Force was, in fact, his twins; with his formidable power, the Order would surely take his children into the fold right away. It would have been a hearkening back to the times seen in Tales of the Jedi, where Jedi did, indeed, have families. Anakin could have been the catalyst to take the Order back to that point. Also, having won this war, and saved the galaxy from the clutches of the Sith, the Jedi Order would have been hailed as the saviors of the galaxy; supplicants would have streamed in from all over...people bringing their children in to be tested and taken if found to be Force-sensitive, people petitioning to come work for the Jedi Order in some administrative or support capacity, etc. Heck, the Order would have found itself thrust into a new Golden Age, and likely would have reinstated their old academies in other locations, like Arkania and Ossus. This Civil War could have served as a catalyst to shake the Order to its core, to give them the slap in the face they so desperately needed, to bring them out of their complacent stupor, and to force them to once more become vigilant against the rise of the dark side. It could have been a great day for them.
I think the pivotal point has been made, however: Anakin needed to obey Mace Windu and remain behind at the Temple. He'd been whining about not being considered trustworthy, about not being made a Master, about a lot of things. Had he done this one thing, he'd have been fine. Had he been able to master his emotions and put the fate of the galaxy ahead of his own selfish desires, things would have been VASTLY different. I believe, in this "What If" timeline, Anakin needs to have been made to think by Windu's statement: "If what you say is true, then you will have earned my trust." All Anakin needed to do was sit tight, and he'd have won over his staunchest opponent. It is very likely that he would have also been immediately elevated to the rank of Master. And, since he wouldn't have then been converted to mostly machine instead of man, he'd have been more able to fully tap into his potential; he may have even surpassed Yoda in raw Force power, but he'd have done so on the light side, and would have SAVED billions instead of murdering them.
Such are my thoughts on the matter; as the discussion unfolds, I'll try to chime in more often so you're not stuck reading a new novel every time I post...  |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: |
As for Order 66, it was, in fact, only one of well over a hundred 'contingency' special orders that all the clones had ingrained into them during their creation and training. As far as I've seen, however, no one else knew about these contingency orders; I'm sure that part of the clones' training also included instructions to keep these special orders confidential...otherwise, the Jedi generals would surely have know about them, including the dreaded Order 66, and would have been prepared to counteract it. Palpatine was WAY too cunning, and way too sure of his own powers and machinations, to share that tidbit with anyone - even his own advisers - because to let someone know that bit of information would be to allow the existence of a possible leak of said information, and he couldn't allow that to come about and still operate in the absolute secrecy he constantly maintained. |
I don't think so. From what I've read the Order were not kept confidential to the Clones. There were probably several people in the Republic who were aware of them, but they didn't realize how the order could be misused, or that it would be misused. I think Order 66 slipped by because it was one of 149 special orders designed to handle worst case, crisis scenarios. The full implications of Order 66 seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle.
In some ways (and probably deliberately), it's not that far off from some of the special cases and emergency powers that leaders of some modern nations have , that we generally don't talk or think about, but which could be misused.
I also think the situation shows some of the moral weakness and corruption of the Republic. Here you have this huge, supposedly free and equal society, yet it doesn't really fight for itself, but instead outsources most of it's military. The Jedi are distant from the general population, and the Clones are essentially slaves forced to defend a Republic that they are not a part of.
The fact that nobody seemed to have a problem with it, and that even the Jedi were willing to accept it shows how bad things really were. I still can figure out how the Republic could be so stupid as to use clones that were commissioned by Count Dooku, the leader of the Separatists. THe Jedi should have known that something was up.
But then, Lucas had to come up with a way of wiping out the Jedi at the end of Episode III to maintain continuity. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think the pivotal point has been made, however: Anakin needed to obey Mace Windu and remain behind at the Temple. He'd been whining about not being considered trustworthy, about not being made a Master, about a lot of things. Had he done this one thing, he'd have been fine. Had he been able to master his emotions and put the fate of the galaxy ahead of his own selfish desires, things would have been VASTLY different. I believe, in this "What If" timeline, Anakin needs to have been made to think by Windu's statement: "If what you say is true, then you will have earned my trust." All Anakin needed to do was sit tight, and he'd have won over his staunchest opponent. It is very likely that he would have also been immediately elevated to the rank of Master. And, since he wouldn't have then been converted to mostly machine instead of man, he'd have been more able to fully tap into his potential; he may have even surpassed Yoda in raw Force power, but he'd have done so on the light side, and would have SAVED billions instead of murdering them. |
You bring up an interesting point there. HAD anakin stayed behind, would Palpaltine had let himself get into such a position of vulnerability against windu (some say it was for show) OR was he really getting beat by windu and as such could have been killed.
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Jerrod Owex
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 26 Apr 2013
Posts: 56
Location: Iowa, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | Such are my thoughts on the matter; as the discussion unfolds, I'll try to chime in more often so you're not stuck reading a new novel every time I post... |
It's ok, lol, i plan to come back to this every so often when i actually start putting the whole thing together, so no worries. This is doing two things for me that are really important, it is storing so of MY ideas in a permanent-ish fashion, and allowing others to give me their thoughts on these things.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Try reading Star Wars fan fiction for What If? Concepts. Lots of well- detailed ideas there... |
That is an excellent idea, but could you point me in a direction of such things. I know they are out there but i have little idea of where and how to efficiently find them, i of course could just google, or bing if you prefer, Star Wars Fan Fiction but something tells me i would be spending most of my time sifting through crap, so again help is welcomed. |
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Jerrod Owex
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 26 Apr 2013
Posts: 56
Location: Iowa, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Jerrod Owex wrote: | | That is an excellent idea, but could you point me in a direction of such things. I know they are out there but i have little idea of where and how to efficiently find them, i of course could just google, or bing if you prefer, Star Wars Fan Fiction but something tells me i would be spending most of my time sifting through crap, so again help is welcomed. |
Ok so i think i may have found some decent stuff, not as hard as i thought it would be. |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | The fact that nobody seemed to have a problem with it, and that even the Jedi were willing to accept it shows how bad things really were. I still can figure out how the Republic could be so stupid as to use clones that were commissioned by Count Dooku, the leader of the Separatists. THe Jedi should have known that something was up.
But then, Lucas had to come up with a way of wiping out the Jedi at the end of Episode III to maintain continuity. |
Actually, technically speaking, the clone army was commissioned by Master Sifo-Dyas, who was a long-time friend of Dooku, and who was actually killed by Dooku after the army had been commissioned on Kamino. I agree that it does point to the serious moral decay of the Republic, and the issues the Jedi Order were experiencing. However, the Jedi's issues were brought about by the long-time machinations of the Sith, especially Sidious; I believe that, once he was killed, the fog that was enveloping the Jedi Order would have been lifted, and they'd have been able to see more clearly than they had in decades, and would have consolidated their feces, so to speak, and that would have had a positive impact on the Senate, and the Republic as a whole.
@garkhal: Personally I think Mace would still have pwned him; the game terms angle of requiring a character to have a DSP in order to learn Vapaad equates to a mechanism to show that the character actually likes the combat, even revels in it on some level. Plus, his ability to see all the shatterpoints (hence the name of the book with him on the cover) around him was a very specialized form of precognition, which would have aided him in his combat with Palpatine. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Did they ever stat out Shatter point as a force power?
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Clone Wars Conversion, page 59.
Shatterpoint Sense & Strike
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Did they ever stat out Shatter point as a force power? |
Oh, man... that one was hard. And yeah, we wound up splitting it into two powers.
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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First off, I need to get a copy of the Clone Wars book. Someone please hook me up with a link!
Second, I can see reasons for both splitting Shatterpoint into two powers AND for leaving it as a single power. Why did you choose to split it, in the end? What was the prevailing argument that made the final decision go that way? |
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jmanski
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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There was debate that it was too powerful as one power, so it was split into two. One for seeing the shatterpoint and one to do something about it, basically.
IIRC....
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