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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | They are not close to you, but the California wild fires in general made me think of them. They are down in Alpine, east of San Diego near I-8, and their fire was back on July 6th. I guess I spoke too soon - there was one house in their neighborhood destroyed, only two doors down from them. My wife also has a grandmother, and another uncle, aunt, and cousins that all live in the general San Diego area. |
Gotcha. Yeah, this is a bad summer for fires in CA. And still not as bad as last year when Santa Rosa got hit. We had a fire-induced tornado hit one of the north Redding neighborhoods.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I highly recommend the IAG. It is such a neat box set with all kinds of goodies easily usable with 2e. |
Thanks. I recall skimming through it, and rather liked the simplified Sensor mechanic in particular.
EDIT: Just did a price search. The two copies I could find were ~$150 on Amazon and $80 on eBay. It may have to wait... |
An update on this. I just connected with a guy in the Star Wars D6 Facebook group with 8 copies of the IAG, with qualities ranging from "New (still in the plastic wrap)" to "Acceptable." I'm short on funds right now, so I went for an Acceptable version, and it cost me $20 + $5 S&H in the US. If this is something you're looking to add to your collection, here is the Facebook link.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I highly recommend the IAG. It is such a neat box set with all kinds of goodies easily usable with 2e. |
Thanks. I recall skimming through it, and rather liked the simplified Sensor mechanic in particular.
EDIT: Just did a price search. The two copies I could find were ~$150 on Amazon and $80 on eBay. It may have to wait... |
An update on this. I just connected with a guy in the Star Wars D6 Facebook group with 8 copies of the IAG, with qualities ranging from "New (still in the plastic wrap)" to "Acceptable." I'm short on funds right now, so I went for an Acceptable version, and it cost me $20 + $5 S&H in the US. If this is something you're looking to add to your collection, here is the Facebook link. |
Cool. New (to you) WEG Star Wars. I'm looking forward to your reaction to it when you get it.
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Ten-20-Three
Ensign
Joined: 23 Jun 2018
Posts: 41
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
Thanks. If I absolutely had to pick a favorite adventure, I'd probably go with Tatooine Manhunt, the original SW adventure module. If you can get past there being another aging Republic hero that hid on Tatooine, it's a lot of fun.
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First of all, sorry to hear about the fires and all the destruction which followed.
As it goes to “Tatooine Manhunt” - it seems that I did not pay enough attention to this one. Thanks a lot.
I like the beginning of “Planet of the Mists”. I find it interesting, because players get confused with the situation in which they find themselves. Unfortunately, as the plot develops it becomes less interesting.
I also like “Battle for the Golden Sun”, but my players had really a big issue with physics of underwater environment, where movement is quite different than in on the surface.
I plan to run “Goroth - Slave of the Empire” and “Black Ice” which both look very promising. Did you run them?
By the way, many adventures supplements suggest creation of new characters, while my players generally prefer to develop characters in a long run, becoming heroes to remember. What is your approach to this issue?
Finally, in some supplements there is a read aloud section for players to read at the start of the first adventure. Do you ever use it? For me and my mates it seems a bit forced to tell players what they should say, in some sense it takes their freedom of playing their character their own way.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ten-20-Three wrote: | | I plan to run “Goroth - Slave of the Empire” and “Black Ice” which both look very promising. Did you run them? |
Goroth - no, Black Ice - yes. It's pretty fun.
| Ten-20-Three wrote: | | By the way, many adventures supplements suggest creation of new characters, while my players generally prefer to develop characters in a long run, becoming heroes to remember. What is your approach to this issue? |
A lot of the adventures are written as "entry level" to entice GMs with new players. If the party of PCs is more experienced then you just have to adjust the challenge levels. They also usually say they are written for 4-6 PCs. If the party is smaller, you have to adjust the challenge levels. If you have a lesser number of more experienced PCs, sometimes it works out without too much adjusting.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: read-aloud adventure scripts |
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| Ten-20-Three wrote: | | Finally, in some supplements there is a read aloud section for players to read at the start of the first adventure. Do you ever use it? For me and my mates it seems a bit forced to tell players what they should say, in some sense it takes their freedom of playing their character their own way. |
No offense but that view seems egotistical to me. I view the purpose of roleplaying to be a group of people co-creating an entertaining story. The constructs for this story do come from players each playing a main character and the GM playing the rest of the story's characters, with the game mechanics determining the outcome of choices made and actions taken by all the characters. But it is already built into the game that these constructs are not absolutes. Players know things about each other's characters (like skill levels and wound status) and the universe (like knowledge of game mechanics and other meta-knowledge) that their characters wouldn't know. The GM can fudge die roll when warranted (for and against the PCs). The GM can creatively steer the plot of the adventure in multiple ways, such as planning for any outcome of a certain events or choices leading to next plot point in the adventure without the players knowing that, so in other words sometimes players only have the illusion of chance and free will.
Thankfully, most players I've played with understand all this and go with it. All my players' PCs are co-created by the whole group. Yes the PC's player does have the biggest say over the character, but we are all creating the story so IMO PCs shouldn't have such a sense of individual player ownership that other players and the GM can't speak for them a small fraction of the time. Sometimes when a player can't make a session and the PC can't be written out of the story, I or another player will play the PC, including choosing the character's words. When using a read-aloud adventure script, I or an author are choosing the words for the character. Of course, the GM using a published script should not feel bound to what is written. I have rewritten several scripts to better capture the characters' voices. In the decades I've been playing this game and using scripts, I can only remember one time when a player flat-out refused to read what I had written for the character, and that is because I accidentally left out a word that made the sentence grammatically incorrect, and the PC was not the type of character to speak that way. I was embarrassed but we corrected it and moved on. I've also had players ad-lib their lines on the fly to a different wording they thought sounded a little better, and I don't remember ever having a problem with their choices.
So when a rare player of mine has brought up the loss of absolute free will that using a read-aloud adventure script means, my response has usually been something to tune of, "Get over it." And they do. We are talking about what is usually much less than 1% of the PC's spoken words in the adventure. In my view, taking issue with adventure scripts is not fully getting into the spirit of the group activity of roleplaying.
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Falconer
Commander
Joined: 08 Dec 2014
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Ten-20-Three wrote: | | Finally, in some supplements there is a read aloud section for players to read at the start of the first adventure. Do you ever use it? For me and my mates it seems a bit forced to tell players what they should say, in some sense it takes their freedom of playing their character their own way. |
For what it’s worth, I agree with you. I sort of get where Whill’s coming from, and as I’ve gotten older and have less free time, I’ve been content to pull out a module and run it as-is and “Get over it” if there was anything that didn’t align with my RPG theories. However, the whole thing of reading the script to me adds nothing to the experience, and the module runs just as fine with cutting it. Ditto with cutscenes. Ditto with any NPCs which are supposed to be central to the story (especially the situation where you are supposed to have the NPC tagging along with the party “guiding” them what to do at every turn). They’re awkward devices which just eat up time that could be spent gaming. |
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Ten-20-Three
Ensign
Joined: 23 Jun 2018
Posts: 41
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: read-aloud adventure scripts |
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| Whill wrote: |
So when a rare player of mine has brought up the loss of absolute free will that using a read-aloud adventure script means, my response has usually been something to tune of, "Get over it." And they do. We are talking about what is usually much less than 1% of the PC's spoken words in the adventure. In my view, taking issue with adventure scripts is not fully getting into the spirit of the group activity of roleplaying. |
I have gamemastered teams of individuals who actually were not a team but characters brought together by coincidence or some sort of event, each resembling a bit Raistlin from the Dragon Lance, keeping a lot of secrets, doing a lot of staff behind backs of others. Moreover, they were like a group of wolves fighting for leadership and of course spoils of war. Despite it all, they liked to play together and sometimes to quarrel and fight against each other. So, it was very challenging to run sessions, but on the other hand it gave also a lot of fun. It never worked out with them to use read aloud, because they usually already had their own plan in mind, and they reacted very spontaneous to situations. So, if I wanted them to read a dialogue, they usually already split to perform some actions. So, the story was strongly built by the players, and I actually have never known where were we heading during the session. The adventure script gave me hooks, milestones, or however you call it, which I had tried to follow.
Currently, I have two teams, one very focused on team success (no problem with read aloud), and other, where group of experienced players have very independent characters, who join forces just couple of times during session – so in many cases there are three story plots interweaving each other from time to time. They are very reluctant to adventures where they are thrown into situations without chance of reaction – for example your ship was hit by something, now drops into atmosphere and you, no matter what, will crush land. This sort of beginning just kills their creativity, especially if you have force users aboard. On the other hand, it takes really a lot of time to prepare scripts for them, which are not cliché and I usually use the SW supplements only as source of general idea, maps, location and NPC’s. So, I agree it is about the players, but my experience is that it is often about the style of play of the whole group of players than one player sabotaging the game (and getting over it). If the players do not feel it and give no emotion to read aloud, it is better to just skip it. For example, I know that players totally immerse into game when they stand up, imitate sound of lightsabers, blasters and so on during fight sequences.
| Whill wrote: |
The GM can fudge die roll when warranted (for and against the PCs). The GM can creatively steer the plot of the adventure in multiple ways, such as planning for any outcome of a certain events or choices leading to next plot point in the adventure without the players knowing that, so in other words sometimes players only have the illusion of chance and free will. |
As it goes to changing results of dice – I avoid it as much as possible – dice give an element of fortune or chaos, and if someone/something succeeded or not, well it happened. You just need to adapt the story – I think it is the part of creative fun of gamemastering. Following this rule, few times scenarios collapsed, but in other cases, we had really epic conclusions. I think that each gamemaster has it own style of running stories and I believe that players join the game if they accept the methods (e.g. strict to mechanics, gamemaster can change each rule, storytelling and so on).
| Falconer wrote: |
For what it’s worth, I agree with you. I sort of get where Whill’s coming from, and as I’ve gotten older and have less free time, I’ve been content to pull out a module and run it as-is and “Get over it” if there was anything that didn’t align with my RPG theories. However, the whole thing of reading the script to me adds nothing to the experience, and the module runs just as fine with cutting it. Ditto with cutscenes. Ditto with any NPCs which are supposed to be central to the story (especially the situation where you are supposed to have the NPC tagging along with the party “guiding” them what to do at every turn). They’re awkward devices which just eat up time that could be spent gaming. |
I totally agree with you.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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My copy of the IAG just came in the mail. I was expecting it on Monday, but apparently the USPS was ahead of schedule. I’ll be thumbing through it later tonight.
Incidentally, I figured out last night that there’s one more WEG book I don’t own: Best of the Adventure Journal 1-4. I do recall having a chance to pick one up once, but since I already owned copies of all the Adventure Journals, it didn’t make much sense to pay for the same info twice.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ten-20-Three wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | So when a rare player of mine has brought up the loss of absolute free will that using a read-aloud adventure script means, my response has usually been something to tune of, "Get over it." And they do. We are talking about what is usually much less than 1% of the PC's spoken words in the adventure. In my view, taking issue with adventure scripts is not fully getting into the spirit of the group activity of roleplaying. |
I have gamemastered teams of individuals who actually were not a team but characters brought together by coincidence or some sort of event, each resembling a bit Raistlin from the Dragon Lance, keeping a lot of secrets, doing a lot of staff behind backs of others. Moreover, they were like a group of wolves fighting for leadership and of course spoils of war. Despite it all, they liked to play together and sometimes to quarrel and fight against each other. So, it was very challenging to run sessions, but on the other hand it gave also a lot of fun. It never worked out with them to use read aloud, because they usually already had their own plan in mind, and they reacted very spontaneous to situations. So, if I wanted them to read a dialogue, they usually already split to perform some actions. So, the story was strongly built by the players, and I actually have never known where were we heading during the session. The adventure script gave me hooks, milestones, or however you call it, which I had tried to follow.
Currently, I have two teams, one very focused on team success (no problem with read aloud), and other, where group of experienced players have very independent characters, who join forces just couple of times during session – so in many cases there are three story plots interweaving each other from time to time. They are very reluctant to adventures where they are thrown into situations without chance of reaction – for example your ship was hit by something, now drops into atmosphere and you, no matter what, will crush land. This sort of beginning just kills their creativity, especially if you have force users aboard. On the other hand, it takes really a lot of time to prepare scripts for them, which are not cliché and I usually use the SW supplements only as source of general idea, maps, location and NPC’s. So, I agree it is about the players, but my experience is that it is often about the style of play of the whole group of players than one player sabotaging the game (and getting over it). If the players do not feel it and give no emotion to read aloud, it is better to just skip it. For example, I know that players totally immerse into game when they stand up, imitate sound of lightsabers, blasters and so on during fight sequences. |
No, adventure scripts are definitely not necessary for the game, and since I have ran more original adventures than published ones, I have not made an adventure script for most original adventures meaning overall I have ran many more adventures without scripts than with. But the question I was asked about was what we do about scripts for the published adventures.
Despite their utter lack of necessity, I don't have a problem with them and I feel they can add the intended spirit to the game, like you are making a "Star Wars" movie (or TV series). We are all playing roles like actors do. When I use them they are usually the very first thing to set up the adventure. It isn't "railroading" the players to a course of action unless you never start adventures in medias res. You could very easily just skip the script and include the events and information of the script as the adventure background setting up where the PCs are right now. No railroading per se, but the past leading up to the present moment at the beginning of the adventure already happened so is set-in-stone until the... and Action! I don't really have a problem with that set-up including specific dialogue performed live that gives the same info and provides the same set-up. It's a bit more interactive than the GM just reading to the players.
Sure, that still will not work with every group and campaign type. If a player's first words after a script are, "Hey, my character wouldn't have ever agreed to this mission in the first place!" or "I would never come to this planet again!" then they are not going to like using scripts. But a GM shouldn't even start a campaign without establishing the type of campaign and if scripts could ever be included. You don't lead a player to believe it is an open sandbox campaign and then just spring a script on them! Instead of asking about how you handle scripts in the published adventures, you could have backed up a bit and asked if we only use the published adventures for the maps and characters in an open sandbox situation or if we use them pretty much as designed. Without these qualifications, I answered what I feel are probably the most common use of these published adventures, which is pretty much as is, linear elements and all.
If I had been asked about campaign types up front, I would have answered no, I do not run open sandbox type of campaigns. I did have one campaign that was somewhat close, a bounty hunter guild turned mercenary company, but even then they were still limited by what jobs were available (my GM creativity) so they still didn't have absolute free will a character in the universe would. If you have sessions that start out with players discussing in-character what planet they want to go to today and what kind of work do they want to look for, the GM still has to react and come up with something. That's still only the illusion of free will. If players actually think they have absolute free will in any RPG campaign, they are deluding themselves.
Anymore, I only run two campaign types, Rebel SpecOps and Tramp/Smuggler campaigns. For the most part the Rebels get assigned missions. Tramp Smugglers have a little more leeway as far as looking for work, but I still have things planned, even if it includes multiple options (option a, b, or c). Even with plotted adventures, player choice and dice rolls often lead things astray. As a GM, I adapt. It's not linear, and sometimes things get so far off track they are completely "off the map" and I wing it. Having to do this for every single player whim does not appeal to me as a GM. Are open sandbox GMs better GMs than me? Possibly in some ways. But one of my strengths as GM is knowing my strengths and playing to my strengths towards maximizing group enjoyment of the games I run. I don't want to run open sandbox campaigns so I don't, and I can't really answer questions about how to adapt non-sandbox published material for sandbox campaigns. If that question had been asked up front, I probably wouldn't have answered.
My players know before they start a campaign that it is not an open sandbox campaign. If they have their heart set on that, then they should look elsewhere for a game (but that has never happened). However it is not a GM Express Railroad in my game either. Players are involved in plotting character arcs and campaign story arcs up front. We all discuss what it is and where it is going, and then they hand it over to me to come up with adventures that satisfy what we discussed. I'm pretty successful with it after all these years.
So I'll clarify my earlier statement by saying that players who accept all the constructs involved in roleplaying the types of campaign *I* run (which include published adventures sometimes), but still take issue adventure scripts, need to get over it. Scripts are in much less than 50% of my adventures, and we are talking about under 1% less free will than without them, so they are completely inconsequential to the amount of free will players have over the actions of the characters. My players know that roleplaying a group effort. As I've said, I haven't had the experience of players being disgruntled over me putting a few words in their mouths for a little adventure script. The opposition to scripts I see online seems blown way out of proportion to my gaming experience.
| Ten-20-Three wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The GM can fudge die roll when warranted (for and against the PCs). The GM can creatively steer the plot of the adventure in multiple ways, such as planning for any outcome of a certain events or choices leading to next plot point in the adventure without the players knowing that, so in other words sometimes players only have the illusion of chance and free will. |
As it goes to changing results of dice – I avoid it as much as possible – dice give an element of fortune or chaos, and if someone/something succeeded or not, well it happened. You just need to adapt the story – I think it is the part of creative fun of gamemastering. Following this rule, few times scenarios collapsed, but in other cases, we had really epic conclusions. I think that each gamemaster has it own style of running stories and I believe that players join the game if they accept the methods (e.g. strict to mechanics, gamemaster can change each rule, storytelling and so on). |
As far as age-old fudging debate, if a GM is fudging a lot then they are not a very good GM. Fudging should be minimal. Fudging should not be done to compensate for poor planning of adventure challenge levels. Some people seem to think I'm the anti-christ for even mentioning it. Fudging is RAW.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I figured out last night that there’s one more WEG book I don’t own: Best of the Adventure Journal 1-4. I do recall having a chance to pick one up once, but since I already owned copies of all the Adventure Journals, it didn’t make much sense to pay for the same info twice. |
It's not essential. It offers the convenience of having some of the good stuff from those issues in one place, and the superior format of the full page normal book size. But yes, it doesn't have anything not already in those AJ issues. I think they probably published it mainly for people that missed the first 3 or 4 issues of AJ.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | My copy of the IAG just came in the mail. I was expecting it on Monday, but apparently the USPS was ahead of schedule. I’ll be thumbing through it later tonight. |
Cool.
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Ten-20-Three
Ensign
Joined: 23 Jun 2018
Posts: 41
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | ...But the question I was asked about was what we do about scripts for the published adventures... |
Sorry for not being precise at the very beginning, but additional questions came along after your first reply.
As it goes to fudging, as mentioned earlier, it happens from time to time to keep up the story going.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
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Ziz
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Feb 2022
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Finally got into the forums after some registration troubles.
Earlier in this thread, the list at sandcrawler.com was referenced. I've been working on enhancing it over the past few weeks, initially for personal use, but I figure I'll share it here for everyone.
Direct download --> Star Wars WEG inventory.xlsx <-- Direct download: Will not open in browser tab.
First thing I did was copy/paste the Sandcrawler list to an Excel spreadsheet. I then took to organizing the information a little better, as well as re-wording some things to follow a consistent format. I added a "Notes" column next to "Description", so Description is a sentence or two about what function the book serves in gameplay, while Notes is other details about the book - included maps, GM screens, Star Warriors game pieces, cards, miniatures (box sets), etc. - to aid in making sure you're getting a complete product when buying something that originally came sealed/shrinkwrapped but now isn't. I also added columns that indicate if it's 1st or 2nd Edition, the general type of content (Rules, Adventure, Supplement, etc.), number of pages, and packaging (Hardcover, Softcover, Game, Box Set). Items that were in production but canceled at the time of WEG's demise are indicated in red text.
A note about the 1st/2nd Edition stock numbers: Every product is listed individually as per the original Sandcrawler list. I added a second column and sorted the stock numbers into 1st Edition, 2nd Edition or both. If a product only has a number in one column and not the other, that means it only exists in that Edition of the game. So, "Battle For The Golden Sun"/40017 only exists in 1st Edition, while "Galladinium's Fantastic Technology"/40025 only exists in 2nd Edition. "Tatooine Manhunt" was first released in 1st Edition - 40005 - but was later updated to 2nd Edition as part of "Classic Adventures Vol 3" - 40133.
Next thing I did, being this is an Excel file now, was to move the Miniatures listings to a separate sheet. So you have two tabs - Books and Miniatures.
The Miniatures are similarly organized. Using a combination of the sheet itself, pictures from Lost Minis Wiki and the reference sheet insert from the Vehicles Starter Set, I detailed exactly which minis are in each blister pack. The only ones I don't have info for are the big multi-packs of Imperial and Rebel troopers that were sold near the end of the line. A Notes column here also references where minis came from as the line was converted from box sets to blister packs. Finally, new sculpts - Heir to the Empire, Noghri, Darkstryder crew, Mos Eisley Cantina 2, and some vehicles and creatures - are highlighted in yellow.
On my personal version, I color-code the Item # boxes for which ones I have and which I still need to get.
Oh, and if you have any verifiable info (exact contents of those 12 figure multi-packs I mentioned earlier, for example) that could be added to the sheet, let me know and I'll update accordingly.
Last edited by Ziz on Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ziz
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Feb 2022
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Re-download if you did already. Fixed a minor error in the Miniatures Blister Packs listings. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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