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Kayle Skolaris
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 224
Location: Brandon, MS
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 Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:55 am Post subject: |
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There IS a way to get access to someone's deeper memories. All it takes is creative use of... wait for it... AFFECT MIND!!! Use Affect Mind to make the character believe he/she is speaking to a trusted ally, a loved one, their therapist, whatever... Then ask them to recount X event from the past. Staged correctly, they'll tell you whatever you want to know.
This could get really interesting if the force user is proficient in hypnosis. Use Affect Mind to gain the trust of subject and then use Hypnosis (Knowledge or Perception skill, someone needs to make up rules for it) to place the subject into a trance. From there, you can get pretty much any piece of information you like out of the subject and rearrange any memory you choose with Affect Mind.
I should point out that unless the goal of such acts is extremely benevolent, I would consider it a DSP offense. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Garkhal, is that just for memories or any Affect Mind? If it's the latter, I don't know... you roll +30 over the difficulty and the poor target has a permanent illusion that a wild rancor is following him for his entire life.... |
I was using that for the conclusion side of house. Memories are already covered in the powers description.
| Quote: | | Also, the way the description of the Affect Mind force power reads, it is clearly against the spirit of the rule to use it to permanantly alter a person's psychology. It's meant to alter the target's PERCEPTION or CONCLUSION, not to brainwash them. |
But if the conclusion being altered, is that the enemy you currently are fighting are not your enemy, but your allies is that not the same as brain washing:?
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But if the conclusion being altered, is that the enemy you currently are fighting are not your enemy, but your allies is that not the same as brain washing:? |
Not if it's a momentary thing. If you make someone believe for a moment that Palpy is his friend, that's a trick. If you actually MAKE him Palpy's friend for life, that's brainwashing.
| garhkal wrote: | | I was using that for the conclusion side of house. Memories are already covered in the powers description. |
The example I gave was not for memories, but illusions caused by altered perceptions. Do you think the mentioned "rancor illusion" should follow the character around forever if you roll high enough?
PS: I can see that this is an argument in which one side is unlikely to convince the other. However, since this is after all a discussion board, I don't see why we can't go on debating it. As long as we manage to keep it going in the civil way it's been going, I'm glad to clash ideas. Boy, in another forum this would have already derailed a long time ago...
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scott2978
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 220
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | | Boy, in another forum this would have already derailed a long time ago... |
Agree.
About the Rancor illusion, this is what I think:
Affect mind only affects the target's mind for a moment. It doesn't create a constant effect, at best it lasts "briefly" or "short" as the decription says. It changes something that the target thinks, and THAT only lasts as long as the target's mind has no reason to doubt. The power of AM is not meant to create holographic Rancors or Gingerbread Houses, it's to change what someone perceives or concludes by implanting a suggestion in their mind. To implant the thought that a Rancor was following them would only last until they see that there is no Rancor. They also cannot interract with the Rancor, lest they'd realize instantly it wasn't real. You can't be eaten by an illusionary Rancor. Also, the fact that AM only works on one person means that nobody else would perceive the Rancor, just you. And the description of AM says that the visual hallucinations are BRIEF, or SHORT. From this I gather they are talking about fleeting shadows and the like, not a Rancor standing in the room with you. I would rule that it is not possible to use AM to make a holographic Rancor that chases people. However, you could do something like this:
"Down the corridor, you see a large shadow play on the wall briefly, and a growling sound that distinctly reminds you of that Grothomirian Bull Rancor you encountered on Tranaj last year. The floor plating seems to vibrate with heavy footfalls and momentarily you catch a faint whiff of that musky odor that Bull Rancors exude during mating season. At length the smell dissipates and the vibrations stop, and everything goes quiet again. Perhaps it's sniffing the air, hunting you, just like the one on Tranaj last year? What do you do?"
Scott |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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I very much like your example, and I think that's the way Affect Mind should be handled. However, if a player really wanted to create the "holographic rancor" and rolled really well, I think it's still in the realm of "altering perceptions". We tend to think optical illusions would be too complex, but don't you think the illusion of a bull rancor's musky mating season odor is darn complex as well? Sure enough, the optical illusion would have to be brief.
"You turn a corner and a big shadow looms over you, as you raise your eyes, your heart skips a full 4-beats as you take in the figure of a monstrous bull rancor standing in front of you, growling menacingly."
If all goes well, the character will run for his life, not looking back. He might hear the heavy footsteps fading away behind him. If he stands and fights, or takes his time to analyze the beast thoroughly, the illusion will crumble under his scrutiny.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I can see that this is an argument in which one side is unlikely to convince the other. However, since this is after all a discussion board, I don't see why we can't go on debating it. As long as we manage to keep it going in the civil way it's been going, I'm glad to clash ideas. |
I think part of my reluctance to understand/agree with your viw point, is if affecting a conclusion was so 'fleeting/momentary' why is it listed as harder to manipulate than a memory which lasts a long darn time/if not forever..
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Well, because I'd say there are people here in the real world who can manage to alter a memory (through hypnosys, brainwashing, torture, what have you), but you'd be hard pressed to find someone able to affect your mind in the moment (and I'm not talking about tricks, illusions and persuasive power). So altering a memory must be easier than altering current perceptions/conclusions.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Though here is a question.
Would changing what you think about the empire from being the baddies to the goodies, be a memory or conclusion change??
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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It would be a conclusion change. Unless you went back and altered all the memories on which you based your opinion of the Empire. If you don't remember ever seeing the Empire doing anything bad, can only think back to their noble charity work, how they rescued Alderaan from famine, helped the wookiees develop technology and all sort of good deeds, you would have no reason to dislike the Empire. However as soon as you saw a squad of stormtroopers mowing down a group of peaceful protesters, you would start rethinking your opinion of them. On the other hand with a conclusion change you could watch the scene above and still think the Empire is good because the protesters were obviously about to turn violent and it's in the interest of the common good that the soldiers of the Empire take strong action against such fiends.
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scott2978
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 220
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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That's the beauty of Affect Mind, it can alter your perception (like making sandpeople hear a Krayt Dragon nearby) or your conclusions ("these aren't the droids you're looking for").
I might allow a jedi to manifest a holographic Rancor briefly if they got real lucky on their die roll, but I'd be real causious about letting them do it on purpose. Meddling with people's minds isn't a "good" act, and certainly infecting their mind with the horrific fear of a Rancor on their heels is an act of the dark side.
Scott |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Well, since AM is not a 'maintainable power', if a jedi DID succeed (or dark jedi) on using it, to change someone's conclusion about their alliegance to the empire (eg a player using it on an imperial captain, to get him to defect/give them the info), how often would they need to 'redo it'?
EG Dark jedi Pussy foot, has PC#2 on his own, away from the group, and the player has yet to realise that he is a Dark jedi. He hits the player with AM to 'change his feelings on the empire' as well as says, the empire is your friend, and you wish to go to them.
A) if the diff was met, would the pc go?
B) how often would the pc get a reroll/require the dark jedi to re-up the power?
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scott2978
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 220
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Well, since AM is not a 'maintainable power', if a jedi DID succeed (or dark jedi) on using it, to change someone's conclusion about their alliegance to the empire (eg a player using it on an imperial captain, to get him to defect/give them the info), how often would they need to 'redo it'?
EG Dark jedi Pussy foot, has PC#2 on his own, away from the group, and the player has yet to realise that he is a Dark jedi. He hits the player with AM to 'change his feelings on the empire' as well as says, the empire is your friend, and you wish to go to them.
A) if the diff was met, would the pc go?
B) how often would the pc get a reroll/require the dark jedi to re-up the power? |
It depends greatly, maybe entirely, on the situation. In your first example of a PC trying to get an Imperial Captain to defect, that cannot be done with a single AM use. I personally would rule that it can't be done at all using only the AM force power. That Imperial Captain isn't going to change his entire system of morals, conscience and ethics based on a changed memory or perception. I would rule though, that someone in the Captain's confidence, using Persuation and incorperating the AM force power on occasion, could do so if given an extended period of time, say months or years, to convince the Captain that he's made the wrong choice to support the Empire.
Keep in mind that I feel using Affect Mind to inflict fear, pain or to coerce the target into doing something against their conscience is a Dark Side act. So while trying to convince the Captain that he's not on the right side is ok, convincing him to march into detention is NOT ok.
I would apply this same logic to your second example with the jedi PC as well.
However, I don't think that a Dark Side jedi would use the method you describe anyway. That's much to direct and obvious for the Dark Side. Instead of trying to make the PC walk into the Imperial Palace and turn himself in, the Dark Sider would, through Con, Persuasion, lies and very likely the AM force power - implant the PC jedi with the emotional "gut feeling" that some friend of his is in dire trouble on Coruscant and needs his help immediately or they may die, or even worse. The Dark Sider would convince the PC that they MUST go to Coruscant, but not to march into detention, but rather to do some act of good that simply cannot be ignored. The Dark Sider would then spring the trap and try to capture the PC and drag him off to detention.
To recap, Affect Mind cannot be used to change someone's morality, conscience or ethics.
Scott |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Although I agree with Scott's more roundabout preference to the AM use, I think it is possible for the Dark Jedi in your example to do what he wants, it would only be very troublesome.
Affect Mind cannot directly change a person's feelings, although it is possible to achieve that by skewing the facts one trusts. The Dark Jedi could implant the thought that the Alliance had gone totally corrupt and evil, and ironically it was the Empire who was now the last hope for freedom for the galaxy. Mind that this would be a very high difficulty Affect Mind. That conclusion, however, would only last until the character started scrutinizing it and found out that it made no sense at all. I'd say the impression could last about 5 minutes. It's like when you have a very strong dream about arguing with someone and you suddenly wake up, for the next five minutes you're not quite sure if the person really is angry at you or not, but eventually you realize the person has no reason to be angry at you, it was only a dream. Well, before the target starts puzzling out that the Empire is indeed evil and he has no reason to believe otherwise, the Dark Jedi has to use Affect Mind again. So, he has to keep on affecting his mind, and if the target doesn't decide to defect by himself, the Dark Jedi can implant that suggestion as well. He will have to stay by his target the entire time he takes to decide on defecting, getting things in motion, travelling wherever he decides to go, joining the Empire, etc. And as soon as the Dark Jedi stopped affecting his mind, the target would realize he must have been totally out of his mind for doing what he did, and would try his best to run back to the Alliance (possibly keeping up the charade long enough to steal some imperial secrets or equipment, or sabotaging something).
Well, that's how I would do it. As always, it's your game and your word is Truth. However if you didn't want a different opinion why would you even post a question in the first place, right?
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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I like that solution Gry... especially as how i envision'ed it going off, the DJ in question would be 'taking' her new best friend to "see daddy" anyway.. Since she would be with him/her,. he could always kick it back up...
Lastly. I noted that in the power activation rule part, it mentions that the control is affected by proximity, but NONE are affected by relationship...
Do you think it should be?
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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What? Nof affected by relationship? That's crazy talk.... i've always used it with Sense modfied by relationship, I think. I'll do some searching to make sure there hasn't been some mistake.
But it damn well makes sense for it to be modified by relationship.
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