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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | I know there have been some weird things in the EU canon (I also read a lot of Dragonlance, whose series bible was no doubt highly moth-eaten)... but this is something held up as being the thing they should have done instead of the ST... which also involved lots of clones. |
I wouldn't go that far. My take is that the HttE trilogy is much better than the sequels we did get, but it wasn't exactly ready for prime time, either. I don't want to really discuss it until you're done with the book, though.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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I've now finished the whole HttE trilogy (since there's a more recent Thrawn Trilogy, I'll use that).
Overall? Really good Star Wars story. Captures a lot of the feel of the OT, though in some ways it feels a bit less original... like the callbacks got strong enough at times that it had some TFA's slightly retread feel. Notably, the only part that wouldn't work with the ST is the fact that Han and Leia had twins, instead of a singular boy child. Everything else could be taken as a backstory to the ST.
As I said, I had my issues with it. Thrawn, overall, was good... the kind of arrogance that is earned. A shadowy figure to the New Republic at first, whose successes lead them to ascribing too much power to him. I really disliked his "I can understand a culture through its art", as I've mentioned, but if you take that part out, or even broaden it to "Art is part of how I examine a culture", or narrow it to "Modern art can give me insights", I'd have less trouble with it. I also disliked the presentation of Pellaeon; he felt like the person there to make Thrawn look smart.
Though I've joked a bit, I don't have a particular problem with the yslamari. They're a contrivance, sure, but they don't feel terribly unreasonable. I did not like the "connection through the Force with the original is what made fast-grown clones go crazy." That felt like a contrivance too far. The yslamari were a contrivance to make Thrawn remain a threat with C'baoth trying to mind control everyone. Making them part of the cloning process felt forced, especially as we never find out that this is how the later Clone Masters sped up the process... if it had been turned up in research, rather than Leia having an inspiration, it might have felt more like something that was simply hidden, rather than being an add-on to make the necessary contrivance more necessary.
Beyond that? I don't recall any big issues. It was a good story. I loved some thing like the mole miners being used as boarding ships, or the New Republic failing to secure the Katana fleet, or even Bel Iblis being a rogue sector of the Rebellion who never came in from the cold. I didn't find Mara to be a terribly objectionable character, though she felt a bit thin.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Cool. Even thought I saw her for what she was, I enjoyed Mara as I was reading it. I was just not expecting the dramatic bait and switch with the marginalizing the trinity so the author's "original" character (almagamation of them) could usurp them and become the big damn hero of the trilogy.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16326
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | I also disliked the presentation of Pellaeon; he felt like the person there to make Thrawn look smart. |
Pellaeon's role is narrative exposition. He's there so Thrawn has someone in-universe to explain himself to, without giving the reader access to Thrawn's internal narrative. He's also the Imperial traditionalist who is grounded in the rules, procedures and themes of the past, but with just enough open mind to be able to think outside the box on occasion. He's the "Imperial perspective" of the entire Imperial side in the trilogy.
The payoff for Pellaeon's tutelage under Thrawn comes in the HoT duology where he really comes into his own.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | I loved some thing like the mole miners being used as boarding ships, or the New Republic failing to secure the Katana fleet, or even Bel Iblis being a rogue sector of the Rebellion who never came in from the cold. I didn't find Mara to be a terribly objectionable character, though she felt a bit thin. |
I laughed when time after time, Lando's schemes got borked over BY THE empire.. First was cloud city. Then came those moleminers, then that walker born mining operation.. He couldn't catch a break.
Garm iblis i LOVED.
And Mara, i started out going MEH with her, but grew to like her.. Though i much preferred Mirax Terrik from the X-wing novels..
| Quote: | | The payoff for Pellaeon's tutelage under Thrawn comes in the HoT duology where he really comes into his own. |
He does.. Especially later on in the new Jedi order time frame..
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | WEG described many alien characters as sterotypes of their species.
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I dunno, I used to think so in hindsight, till I re-read them. They don't seem to be as bad I remembered. Plus a species is not a culture. Compared to any homo sapiens, all dogs are caricatures of the "dog" species.
But nobody can read the mind of a police attack dog by knowing what kinds of dog toys sell well. Which is what Thrawn was doing with his art studies. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | I found Thrawn to be an unsettling endorsement of cultural bigotry at times. |
Nail, meet head. However it would be remiss to not note that WEG is likely partly to blame for this. Zahn was given the WEG books and told to use their fluff in his trilogy. WEG described many alien characters as sterotypes of their species. |
I dunno, I used to think so in hindsight, till I re-read them. They don't seem to be as bad I remembered. Plus a species is not a culture. Compared to any homo sapiens, all dogs are caricatures of the "dog" species.
But nobody can read the mind of a police attack dog by knowing what kinds of dog toys sell well. Which is what Thrawn was doing with his art studies. |
I completely agree with you about Thrawn, but I don't now have time to counter your disagreement with my point about WEG stereotyping aliens. I thought that might make an interesting thread itself, so I'll put that on my to-do list.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
I completely agree with you about Thrawn, but I don't now have time to counter your disagreement with my point about WEG stereotyping aliens. I thought that might make an interesting thread itself, so I'll put that on my to-do list. |
We also have to cut WEG some slack because of the overall state of RPG's back then. 1980's DnD et al did pretty much the same thing. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: |
| Whill wrote: | | WEG described many alien characters as stereotypes of their species. |
I dunno, I used to think so in hindsight, till I re-read them. They don't seem to be as bad I remembered. |
I don't now have time to counter your disagreement with my point about WEG stereotyping aliens. I thought that might make an interesting thread itself... |
We also have to cut WEG some slack because of the overall state of RPG's back then. 1980's DnD et al did pretty much the same thing. |
Wait, so now you agree with me? If we have to cut them slack for it that means they did it.
And don't worry, I do cut them slack. Back then I found it a bit annoying that all these film characters were written as stereotypes of their species, but I got over it. See this new thread for details. I feel it is at least possible that Zahn was inspired by WEG's alien-typing to create Thrawn's 'speciesist' ability in the first place.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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So, I've been listening to the High Republic book "A Test of Courage". It's definitely a YA novel, but fun for that.
Some plot details; I don't think they're terribly hard to figure out at the level I'm talking, but just to be safe.
So, a very young Jedi Knight (16), a Padawan (14), the human son of a diplomat (12ish) and the human daughter of another diplomat (12ish) wind up stranded on a hostile planet after a terrorist attack destroys the ship they're on, killing the padawan's master and the son's father. They're pursued by two Nihil pirates who were supposed to make sure there were no survivors of the attack.
Like I said, definitely YA, but I'm enjoying it.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yslamari Headcanon: The Empire accidentally drove the yslamari to near-extinction.
While the nutrient frames will keep yslamari alive, the depletion of their population by sending them off-world meant that their predators soon hunted them to extinction; especially when you consider the mass death of yslamari at Wayland and on various destroyed Star Destroyers. Meanwhile, undetected environmental requirements meant that the yslamari were not able to reproduce in space. There's now a small farm of yslamari jealously guarded by Imperial Remnants, at an unknown, off-Myrkyr location. But sessile lizards also reproduce slowly, so they're in terribly short supply.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | We also have to cut WEG some slack because of the overall state of RPG's back then. 1980's DnD et al did pretty much the same thing. |
Wait, so now you agree with me? If we have to cut them slack for it that means they did it. |
They did, but, not NEARLY to the extent that I thought I remembered. And the wider nerd culture seems to have similarly misremembered it, as I hear such things in online discussions a lot. |
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| As I mull over HTTE I guess the Ysalami are all minor force users with one specific force power? That is, sending out force static? Maybe with time a PC could figure out how to overcome it with an opposed roll? That would also explain why the Vorknirs remained force sensitive: they could still catch their prey SOME of the time. If the hawk never catches the bunny or always catches the bunny, evolution ends. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:53 am Post subject: |
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That could work, if the older a Vornskr gets, they can start to overcome the static produced by the yssilmari..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | As I mull over HTTE I guess the Ysalami are all minor force users with one specific force power? That is, sending out force static? Maybe with time a PC could figure out how to overcome it with an opposed roll? That would also explain why the Vorknirs remained force sensitive: they could still catch their prey SOME of the time. If the hawk never catches the bunny or always catches the bunny, evolution ends. |
The problem here is that even Luke Skywalker, indisputably the most powerful Jedi in the post-Endor era, was never able to overcome the effects of Ysalamiri, even near decades later during the Hand of Thrawn duology. Even if it could be overcome, if Luke still couldn't do it, no one else would be able to, either. If, on the other hand, it somehow "cancels out" the Force, say by emitting some sort of anti-Force field that nullifies the Force within its area of effect, then relative strength in the Force would be moot, as no one would be able to connect to it anyway.
I picture something along the line of phase cancellation to create a destructive interference effect.
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