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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10434 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Getting out of the Matrix |
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garhkal wrote: | PS Whill. Not sure if this or the GMs area is the best spot for this.. Feel free to move if needed. |
As you can see, I moved it to Gamemasters.
garhkal wrote: | OK, say someone captured your PCs, and put them mentally into a Matrix-like environment.
First, how easily would it be for those IN the matrix like environment to recognize they are IN one
Second, once they've realized, how hard would it be to get OUT? |
After I saw The Matrix, I was influenced by the film to incorporate ideas of it into an altered version of The Game Chambers of Questal adventure module. Sadly I no longer have my notes for it and can remember very little of how I handled it. But I'm sure the PCs were captured and stunned unconscious so that when they "woke up" they were unknowingly in the matrix. I have no idea how they specifically realized it, but I'm guessing it was noticing a glitch. Who knows how they got out of it?
Sorry this post is wholly unhelpful. _________________ *
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14212 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ziz wrote: | Back up a minute. I'd tend to think how they get out of it would depend on how they got into it, right? Is it physical devices the alien race hooked them up to? Did they participate in some kind of alien spirituality/bonding ritual as part of a diplomatic mission? Do the aliens naturally communicate via telepathy and the PCs become inadvertently subject to all the "mental signals" around them? |
As i mentioned to Pakman, this is more of a thought exercise, not something i'm planning to try and do. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2286 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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It's a cool idea and concept.
I've done something similar (in a supers game); in that one I literally mapped out scene by scene based on similar concepts from a Star Trek: TNG episode called "Frame of Mind". _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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Ziz Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Feb 2022 Posts: 112
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Ziz wrote: | Back up a minute. I'd tend to think how they get out of it would depend on how they got into it, right? Is it physical devices the alien race hooked them up to? Did they participate in some kind of alien spirituality/bonding ritual as part of a diplomatic mission? Do the aliens naturally communicate via telepathy and the PCs become inadvertently subject to all the "mental signals" around them? |
As i mentioned to Pakman, this is more of a thought exercise, not something i'm planning to try and do. |
Granted, but either way, the whole thing should have a consistent logic, not just "eenie meenie minie moe" your way through it. |
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KageRyu Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 1391 Location: Lost in the cracks
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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 4:21 am Post subject: |
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There have been a lot of great books, movies, and TV episodes that have addressed dream like or fantasy worlds within a protagonists mind. They often have some common thoughts on how a protagonist realizes they are being duped, and a lot of times this has to do with how familiar the illusory environment is to the protagonist, other times it is based on popular dream logic tropes. There are a lot of factors that could play into detecting the illusion depending on whether it is the result of mechanical device, or some form of mental attack.
Mechanical Devices Causing Illusion
I feel these should have some governing attributes to represent there processing power and adaptability. Obviously the device should have a Die Code for the potency of it's illusionary world, which once the player realizes he is in becomes the opposed Die Code to beat with a Willpower or Control skill roll. There are many ways that may tip a player off, perhaps with some skill associated:
• The Same Black Bantha - Some event, or even more than one, seems to repeat. More than just Deja Vu. It doesn't have to be a Bantha walking by, could be a particular sapient being whose patterns are all too regular, or a set pattern to buildings or streets, or even just too many similar faces, it could be rooms all having identical layout and furnishings (or every Nth Room). A Search or Notice skill might tip the player off, with the difficulty based on how subtle or obvious the repetition is.
• Missing Details - Details are in places absent. Perhaps odors of plants, or food. It might be the tactile sensation of certain surfaces or feelings. A Force User likely will find he cannot sense the life forms around him (they aren't real...so no sensing them). Small clutter might not have appropriate composition on closer inspection. It might even be details are wrong rather than missing - wrong color, the potted plant is all a single piece (pot and plant).
• No Consistency - Events and environment do not seem to have logical structure or consistency to them. Perhaps the streets or corridors rearrange themselves. Beings that never seem to be the same any two times encountered.
• Lag - Perhaps the simulation has trouble keeping up. Especially when the protagonist does something unexpected. Perhaps there is a noticeable stutter when the system is especially taxed? Perhaps there are just delays, or events seem to take longer than they should. The ships computer is slow to retrieve data, the astronomer has trouble calculating routes, unusual pauses from other beings when asked questions that are not expected or off the planned path for said being.
• Visual Distortion - This could be distortions on distant objects with odd perspective, tiling on surfaces almost as if a texture, blurring or visual distortions in the environment. Essential think of every video game or 3D render glitch and those could all be examples.
• Uncanny Valley - Just, something is off. Be it that things just do not look quite realistic enough, or behave not quite the way expected... it all seems off. How off is a matter of degrees and should affect the difficulty to notice.
If a living mind is making some sort of Psychic attack the options would be much different. I will address those ideas in a future post.
Escaping
Whatever the source of this imaginary world, before the protagonist can escape they must recognize it is not real. Once that has been achieved, escaping will could be as simple as matching the source of the false reality in a battle of willpower, or it could require solving some task or puzzle. It might require risking life to escape.
Some great examples of media that addresses escaping Dream or Fantasy worlds include:
STNG - The Battle, STNG - Remember Me, STNG - Future Imperfect, STNG - Frame of Mind, Batman TAS - Dreams in Darkness, Batman TAS - Perchance to Dream, Batman TAS - What is Reality, Justice League Unlimited - For the Man Who Has Everything, Batman Arkham Asylum Game, Novel - The Mind Trap, Doctor Who - The Deadly Assassin, Many Episodes of Season 4 of Agents of Shield, The Matrix Movies, Dreamscape, Brainstorm, Inception, Johnny Mnemonic, Several issues of the classic era of X-Men, Stargate SG-1 - The Gamekeeper, Vanilla Sky, Naked Lunch, Any Nightmare on Elm Street Movie...
I'm sure there are loads more _________________ "There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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FVBonura Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 137 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:50 am Post subject: |
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The core skill in this illusory scenario is Con. The difficulty is set by the skills of the illusionist to create the simulation. Players roll con whenever the illusionist creates something new in the simulation. If the player rolls Con high enough, they then roll willpower to try and break free of the simulation. Once they break free, they can impart a bonus to the other players. Bonuses to Con roll can also come from high Investigation rolls.
Recommended inspirational reading/viewing:
Dungeons & Dragons spell: Phantasmal Force
"The Orville": Season 1, Episode 10, "Firestorm" |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14212 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I am not so certain con would be the skill i'd see here... initially.
BUT thinking on it more, it makes sense since you are dealing with a world made on a lie. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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FVBonura Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 137 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Con picks up inaccuracies in the illusion, details that the creator of the simulation might not know about a given object or experience but the Character knows. Willpower then forces the mind to see the truth. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16320 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:20 am Post subject: |
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Just occurred to me that my Discernment Skill house rule would work in those circumstances, as well. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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FVBonura Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 137 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:04 am Post subject: |
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WEG never designed a counter to Con. They made the realization it takes a liar to detect a liar so the skill is its own counter. I suppose I would also rule you can perform multiple Search and subsequent Investigation rolls at a higher difficulty for the same effect. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16320 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:18 am Post subject: |
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My thinking was that, while that’s certainly true, other people who aren’t good liars may still be perceptive enough to spot when someone else is. Discernment represents that, without eliminating the ability for Con to also oppose Con. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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FVBonura Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 137 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:33 am Post subject: |
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As I have said before, skills and force powers are tools. Finding a balance of utility and the number of tools is difficult. A tool that has only one application clutters the GMs toolbox, and his head during play. A tool that has too many uses can confuse players. This game will be playtested for decades. _________________ Star Wars Deckplans Alliance
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10434 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:49 am Post subject: |
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FVBonura wrote: | As I have said before, skills and force powers are tools. Finding a balance of utility and the number of tools is difficult. A tool that has only one application clutters the GMs toolbox, and his head during play. A tool that has too many uses can confuse players. |
Even with adding a couple skills to my game, my skill list still has a significantly reduced net number of skills.
By design, Perception covers both physical awareness and social awareness. The concept behind Discernment is to make social awareness more analogous to physical awareness. The Search skill is active physical awareness, and the Discernment skill is active social awareness. But I see Discernment as not just discerning deception but as a general "sense motive" skill.
And it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I still have the concept of "a liar detecting a liar" ability of Con, but at a -2D penalty.
So the way I have it, it is still possible for characters to be better at detecting lies than at lying, or better at lying than detecting lies.
Quote: | This game will be playtested for decades. |
If have anything to say about it, it will! _________________ *
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