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jtanzer Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 01 Mar 2023 Posts: 118
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2024 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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jtanzer wrote: | CRMcNeill wrote: | This feels more “real” than using the RAW’s modification/upgrade rules, by which I mean, a character in-universe would say “it’s a DH-44 pistol with [insert upgrade/s here]”, not “it’s a DH-44 modified with +2 to damage.” |
The Alexandrian wrote about this problem and while he doesn't say it explicitly, he implies that you don't need a formal crafting/modification system to justify the statline. In fact, pg. 65 of the 1E rulebook details how PCs can customize their ships, and suggests that the gamemaster should permit the PCs to modify their equipment as well in a similar manner. While 2E is more complex (IMO unnecessarily so), pg. 87 gives rules for blasters with a limit of +1d+2 above base damage value.
SWTOR has a similar system, and it doesn't really do anything useful. The reason why is because you can get similar, or better, equipment as rewards for storyline quests and other content. As a result, equipment modification doesn't really matter. Now, if you couldn't get better gear except through modifying existing gear, then it would have more value. Then, new gear, rather than being strictly better, could open up additional possibilities. However, this doesn't really fit very well into SW.
Personally, I don't see the value in the modification system. It doesn't do anything that the original systems couldn't do as well, and players are unlikely to treat the items created as special. Now, that's not to say that you can't make it work. As I stated previously, it doesn't fit SW, but it does fit the survival/post-apocalypse genre, where you're unlikely to find better equipment. The systems put into a game should support and reinforce that game, rather than being simply tacked on for the sake of 'being there', which, unfortunately, this appears to be.
Sources:
The Alexandrian: Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items
Razbuten: Crafting is (Kinda) Pointless
Adam Millard - The Architect of Games: Building Better Crafting Systems
Game Ghost: Your Crafting System probably sucks.
Playlist: Game Design - Crafting Mechanics |
In case you missed my previous post, here it is. My beef with crafting systems is that you have to make it one of the central pillars of your game in order to make it work. This is what killed WoW's crafting system. Originally, it was a central pillar of the game and economy, with the high end gear being a rare drop from raids. This made acquisition of that gear hard and therefore a mark of status. However, when Blizzard started adding gear to quest rewards, they effectively made crafting worthless.
The problem with adding a crafting/upgrading system to SWD6, as I see it, is a systemic one. While ships are meant to be upgraded, there's little difference between a regular blaster pistol with an upgraded barrel that gives it 5D damage, and a regularly heavy blaster pistol. Similarly, putting an optic on a pistol to give it +1D to blaster skill is little different from a pistol that has been upgraded to give it +1D to blaster skill. In the end, it's just fluff. Handing the GM, who already has a lot of stuff to juggle, yet another system, is less than optimal in my opinion. This is also why I don't always see eye-to-eye with CRMcNeill. While I do like the systems he builds, my priorities are different enough that I view them as less useful than tables that allow me to generate quests, bases, or NPCs. _________________ The best villians are the ones the PCs create. |
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pakman Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021 Posts: 441
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2024 11:11 am Post subject: |
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raithyn wrote: | After some life events I'm finally working on this again. I have some updates that I will hopefully post one day and a few mockups of cards on Dropbox. Since I mainly run one shots with players unfamiliar with the D6 system, I use a lot of game aids.
Any feedback on the design is welcome. What about the item is immediately clear? What requires some work to decipher? Do the upgrade slots make sense? Is the text easy or hard to read? Etc.
The stats on these cards are for 1e skills so you won't see an advanced skill listed. That's an easy change to make a 2e card instead. The disruptor is based on the Carbon Gray Magnetic D6 shotgun. |
Love the cards and love the icons showing the upgrade slots!
At first glance - several were clear, and a few were not - but I think the players could learn them quickly. Text was good, layout etc.
The graphic for the overload switch - looks like a tech crate or something.
Personally, I would not include an icon for an upgrade that is not available - like if the Disruptor only is eligible for the firing chamber, I would only include that icon.
Side note - as I mentioned before I am working on a similar system - and trying to find a decent term for the equal part on melee weapon as 'firing chamber' - what would I call the tech/working part of a vibro weapon.
Again - I think modular upgrades are a great idea - as it allows for flavorful variations on gear, and as part of an ongoing game - gives players ideas on gear they can acquire (because not every PC has a character who is a tech guy - but they might know an NPC who owes them a favor).
Thanks for sharing. _________________ SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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raithyn Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023 Posts: 88
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2024 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the feedback!
Here's my melee mod types (copied from my still-WIP personal design doc):
Quote: | Melee weapon upgrades are divided into three types:
• A bonding alloy modifies a melee weapon’s material composition, offering a variety of interesting properties and effects.
• An energy cell impacts the amount and type of damage that a melee weapon deals with a successful attack.
• Grip design can change the shape and nature of a melee weapon. |
Grip isn't one I'm playing to give to players directly. I use it to price out equipment. The other two have slot icons.
All my icons are originally from Knight of the Old Republic or the sequel. I've played with their clarity but may need to broaden my design references to get different images. I also think I need to make slot and upgrade icons ~50% larger. They looked good to me until I took a few days off and came back to them. Now they seem too small. |
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raithyn Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023 Posts: 88
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2024 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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jtanzer wrote: | jtanzer wrote: | CRMcNeill wrote: | This feels more “real” than using the RAW’s modification/upgrade rules, by which I mean, a character in-universe would say “it’s a DH-44 pistol with [insert upgrade/s here]”, not “it’s a DH-44 modified with +2 to damage.” |
The Alexandrian wrote about this problem and while he doesn't say it explicitly, he implies that you don't need a formal crafting/modification system to justify the statline. In fact, pg. 65 of the 1E rulebook details how PCs can customize their ships, and suggests that the gamemaster should permit the PCs to modify their equipment as well in a similar manner. While 2E is more complex (IMO unnecessarily so), pg. 87 gives rules for blasters with a limit of +1d+2 above base damage value.
SWTOR has a similar system, and it doesn't really do anything useful. The reason why is because you can get similar, or better, equipment as rewards for storyline quests and other content. As a result, equipment modification doesn't really matter. Now, if you couldn't get better gear except through modifying existing gear, then it would have more value. Then, new gear, rather than being strictly better, could open up additional possibilities. However, this doesn't really fit very well into SW.
Personally, I don't see the value in the modification system. It doesn't do anything that the original systems couldn't do as well, and players are unlikely to treat the items created as special. Now, that's not to say that you can't make it work. As I stated previously, it doesn't fit SW, but it does fit the survival/post-apocalypse genre, where you're unlikely to find better equipment. The systems put into a game should support and reinforce that game, rather than being simply tacked on for the sake of 'being there', which, unfortunately, this appears to be.
Sources:
The Alexandrian: Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items
Razbuten: Crafting is (Kinda) Pointless
Adam Millard - The Architect of Games: Building Better Crafting Systems
Game Ghost: Your Crafting System probably sucks.
Playlist: Game Design - Crafting Mechanics |
In case you missed my previous post, here it is. My beef with crafting systems is that you have to make it one of the central pillars of your game in order to make it work. This is what killed WoW's crafting system. Originally, it was a central pillar of the game and economy, with the high end gear being a rare drop from raids. This made acquisition of that gear hard and therefore a mark of status. However, when Blizzard started adding gear to quest rewards, they effectively made crafting worthless.
The problem with adding a crafting/upgrading system to SWD6, as I see it, is a systemic one. While ships are meant to be upgraded, there's little difference between a regular blaster pistol with an upgraded barrel that gives it 5D damage, and a regularly heavy blaster pistol. Similarly, putting an optic on a pistol to give it +1D to blaster skill is little different from a pistol that has been upgraded to give it +1D to blaster skill. In the end, it's just fluff. Handing the GM, who already has a lot of stuff to juggle, yet another system, is less than optimal in my opinion. This is also why I don't always see eye-to-eye with CRMcNeill. While I do like the systems he builds, my priorities are different enough that I view them as less useful than tables that allow me to generate quests, bases, or NPCs. |
I understand your concerns. You may not be the target audience. And that's okay. Either way, I don't think "crafting" is an appropriate term to apply. No one is collecting 100 scrap and 30 glass bottles to forge a pinpoint scope.
The use case I started with was trying to understand and price out differences in equipment—what is that +1D blaster worth? How can it be standardized.
WEG's equipment stats doesn't have firm rules. There were trend lines that emerge though so I started formalizing those for myself. I'm not fully happy with the prices yet but the pieces feel about right.
Modifications seems like an obvious way to present the system. There are only a few base items and no two modifications for a base item duplicate each other. Some of the modifications, like a scope, make sense to let the players change out and get some fun from their repair skills. Some, like grips, don't make as much sense in the fiction. It's ultimately a menu that adds up to a total cost. How much is actually a la carte from the player perspective is entirely up to the GM. |
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deano Lieutenant
Joined: 05 Jan 2008 Posts: 75 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the post. It’s very interesting and bears some similarities to a piece of work that I started a little while ago based on FFG’s attachments system. The core concepts I have been working with is reducing the current modification rules to a maximum of +2. This would represent tuning of the weapon, so better quality components being used and dialling in settings. The attachment element then adds additional abilities, uses or modification buffs (to a maximum of an additional +1D).
Will definitely keep an eye on this project. Thanks
Deano _________________ TORIS - toris.magriller.net |
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1861 Location: Norway
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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I like the "concept" from Scum and villanry (found in the awesome rancorpit library)
With ALL weapons and armor having 1 customization slot, and can be strpped for addtional ones but limited to a maximum of 2-4 depending on the "item"
I can also see a similar system for some starships and for more "mundae" items like a comlink and a datapad and even a breathmask.
A breathmask with a visor is not unheard of, maybe with some "vision" enhancements and the like, the list is limited by how many slots and our imagination
I love the list of cutomization and "attachement" listed in this thread as well. |
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raithyn Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023 Posts: 88
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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I have a few more items at this point. I'm going to list them below instead of editing them into the original post so the design changes are obvious.
Note: Changed all references to specific attack or parry skills to generic terms. E.g., "+1D bonus to blaster" becomes "+1D bonus to attack rolls."
TELESCOPING BLADE
Type: Melee weapon upgrade: bonding alloy
Cost: 600
Availability: 2
Game Notes: The weapon is divided into segments that can collapse to be contained in the weapon’s handle for portability and concealment. When extended, the segments lock into place, allowing the weapon to function normally. Extending or collapsing the weapon requires an action.
Note: Changed all lightsaber hilts to emitters.
PIKE EMITTER
Type: Lightsaber upgrade: emitter
Cost: 4,000
Availability: 4
Game Notes: Lightsaber pikes are polearms with a long metal shaft and a single shorter, thicker blade. A lightsaber with a pike emitter has a melee reach of 2 meters but the wielder suffers a −1D penalty to all rolls made to parry or deflect attacks with the weapon.
WHIP EMITTER
Type: Lightsaber upgrade: emitter
Cost: 4,000
Availability: 4
Difficulty: Difficult
Game Notes: A lightwhip’s “blade” is long and flexible, giving it greater reach but reducing the weapon’s power. A weapon with a whip emitter has the following properties:
• The weapon’s Skill is changed to lightwhip.
• The weapon has a melee reach of 4 meters.
• The weapon’s damage is reduced by 1D+1 (3D+2 energy).
• The wielder gains a +1D bonus to attempts to trip a target.
• The wielder suffers a −2D penalty to all rolls made to parry or deflect attacks with the weapon.
• The wielder may deal entangle damage with the weapon instead of energy damage.
• The wielder cannot add their control dice when automatically dealing damage to a target grappled by the lightwhip.
BIPOD MOUNT
Type: Ranged weapon upgrade: firing chamber
Cost: 100
Availability: 1
Game Notes: A bipod is an attached two-legged stand that steadies the barrel of a ranged weapon. Preparing a bipod for use requires an action while the ranged weapon’s wielder is either prone or adjacent to low objects (or other waist- or chest-high cover) that are between the wielder and the target. If the wielder moves, the bipod cannot be used unless it is prepared again.
While the bipod is prepared, the wielder may use a free action instead of a full round to aim at a target and gain all associated benefits.
QUICKDRAW HOLSTER
Type: Ranged weapon upgrade: firing chamber
Cost: 300
Availability: 2
Game Notes: A quickdraw holster and the associated weapon are custom molded to complement each other. The ranged weapon may be drawn as a free action.
REGULATOR BYPASS CIRCUIT
Type: Ranged weapon upgrade: firing chamber
Cost: 400
Availability: 2
Game Notes: Bypassing a weapon’s regulator allows it to discharge additional energy each time it is fired but can quickly cause it to overheat. The ranged weapon deals an additional +2 damage. If the wielder rolls a 1 on the Wild Die when making an attack roll, the weapon fires as normal but cannot be used for the next 1D rounds.
RESONANT RECYCLER
Type: Ranged weapon upgrade: firing chamber
Cost: 400
Availability: 2
Game Notes: A resonant recycler captures energy that is normally lost when a weapon is fired and directs it back into the blast. The ranged weapon deals an additional +1 damage. Due to the bulk of the recycler, the difficulty of hiding or concealing the weapon is increased by +5.
STATIC ARC GENERATOR
Type: Ranged weapon upgrade: power pack
Cost: 4,000
Availability: 4
Game Notes: A static arc generator builds electrical charge until it creates a lightning bolt. The weapon’s Skill is changed to gunnery, its Ammo to 4, its Fire Rate to 1, its damage reduced by 1D, and its damage type to lightning damage. The weapon can be run off power packs or attached to a generator for unlimited firepower.
RANGEFINDER
Type: Personal armor upgrade: underlay
Cost: 500
Availability: 3
Game Notes: A rangefinder provides an enhanced targeting display. If the wearer spends a full round aiming at a target, they gain a +5 bonus to ranged weapon attacks made at Short range. This benefit lasts until the wielder changes targets or loses line of sight to the target. |
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raithyn Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023 Posts: 88
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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I am using a few properties as shorthand for myself. The most important is keen. In the d20 system, this property increases critical threat, what you need to roll on the d20 to apply your critical damage. I tried to keep that feel and allow players to transfer great attack rolls into increased damage.
KEEN
When the wielder makes an attack roll with this weapon and the Wild Die comes up as a 6, the wielder may choose to forgo rerolling the Wild Die to instead gain a +1D bonus to the damage roll. |
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naash Cadet
Joined: 28 Jun 2024 Posts: 6
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Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I like your job, it gives a good background to upgrade weapons.
Finding the right weapon specialist could be an adventure by itself in a campaign... |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10434 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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