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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
Posts: 15
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 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| Whill wrote: | That's a very different question. Even a "quick list" would be a massive undertaking. But here is a partial list I made the last time I was asked for a concise list of minor grievances addressed by the first draft of a house rules website I created (called Star Wars D6 Damage).
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Thanks for sharing this! That is very helpful. I'm putting together a giant list right now, actually, so these will go on it for sure.
| Quote: | | I used that terminology for emphasis because, from your first post, you didn't seem to quite "know the room" that well. |
Haha! My first post is way out there like Admiral Ozzel's fleet! 
| Quote: | | But newer game design is not inherently superior. I have a little experience with more modern game designs and they overall suck compared to D6. |
Yes, I agree. I wouldn't necessarily say they are all superior. Some are just different. Some are just meeting the expectations of the modern gaming audience. And some are worse! (But there are some that are better.)
Again, big help! I salute you, Supreme Chancellor.
| Quote: | Apology accepted, Captain Needa.
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LOL. (That made me laugh so hard I almost fell out of my chair.)
| Quote: | | (1) Reducing the band of results comes with a loss of nuance that most game systems are ok with, for the sake of arithmetical simplicity. |
I love the nuance, myself. But I wonder if a redesign in the 2020's would silently cap the total dice codes at 10D-12D just because of current trends.
I like success-based dice pool systems as they are quick to interpret, but you're right: they definitely lose something with each die "jump."
| Quote: | | The "buckets of dice" criticism actually existed back then, propelled by WEG competitors |
Haha! Have I been peddling, along with so many others, the enemy's clever lies? 
| Quote: | | I have adjusted the difficulty chart so that the die code ranges directly correspond to die code probabilities, so 1D does indeed equal 3.5 (so in effect the pattern is 2D = 7). |
I read this post a long time ago, actually. One of my favorites. In fact, if I'm being honest here, it was the post that really got me thinking about little ways to improve the D6 system many years ago. (It's been on my mind a long time.) I actually instituted that rule in the game I was about to run back then, and it worked like a charm, I thought. Even though multiples of 7 sound tougher than multiples of 3 or 5, just about everybody I know did the "multiplication songs" back in elementary school, so multiplications of 1 - 10 seem intuitive to most!
| Quote: | As far as the die roll difference ranges on the wound chart, I've tried different things and played around with the wound system. One issue was that each level corresponded to a different sized range, and I have eliminated that but making all ranges 4. As far as that particular choice, it was a matter of finding the right deadliness level, and 4 each kept it close to RAW. For this I didn't feel it is important to be exactly 3.5 each because whatever I chose it is the same for NPCs and PCs. See the link below that goes to my wound system for more details.
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Aaaand here is one of your other posts which I very much enjoyed and ALSO implemented in that very same campaign. It definitely improved the combat scenes by making things deadlier.
| Quote: | The relative popularity of static defenses is something I have observed a bit of as well. A handful here like that option. I guess I have to concede that this may be an evolution thing, but that is only based on the evolution of D6/OpenD6. From what I've seen, a lot of non-D6 game systems don't have dodge rolls, both back in the 80s/90s and now. If you say there used to be more non-D6 games that had dodge rolls like SWD6 and now there are less, I'll take your word for it. So far I personally haven't seen a need for removing the dodge rolls in my game but I am open to considering anyone's house rules for it.
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Honestly, I can't even think of any other systems that use a "dodge" or "defense" roll, ha! Except maybe Milton Bradley's Heroquest (the skulls cancelled out by the white/black shields; a rules-adjacent idea, but not quite the same thing).
| Quote: | | I'll never forget reading the wound system in 1987 and having a big ah-ha moment that this was the better way than hit points, even 1e's multiplication-based version. |
So much better! Agreed.
| Quote: | There are optional rules for a skill damage bonus in RAW. See Rules of Engagement: The Rebel SpecForce Handbook p.58. I've implemented my own version of it too. I also had a problem with soaking blaster bolts so I have a rule that specifically addresses that too.
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Again, massive thank you! These are all very helpful. Combing through the forums seeking out that one thread I saw 5 years ago can be so tedious.
| Quote: | Yeah, they went a little crazy with skills in 2e. Now my skill list is somewhere between 1e and 2e.
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Now that is a far better skill list.
| Quote: | Have you seen 'Dueling Blades' by WEG author Peter Schweighofer?
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No, but I will check it out now.
| Quote: | I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain more please?
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Dodge skill tax: I mean that it's a skill everyone sort of "has" to buy because, if they don't, they...well...die. Lol. So, it feels like a "tax" because it's such a necessity.
In the Zorro RPG, Alan Bahr made it so that "Dodge" was a defense score (instead of a necessary skill) that you derived from a character's DEX code (5 x attribute code). For example, a 2D DEX had a dodge of 10, 3D DEX had a dodge of 15, etc. Problem with this rule is that your Dodge doesn't improve even as the bad guys' shootin' skill increases. (Yeeeeeehaw!)
Bahr's rule was similar to Mini-Six, which did a static defense, but they still used the "Dodge" skill itself to do so: 3.5 x (DEX code + Dodge code); so, you still had to "buy" up Dodge to keep your butt from dying.
I think one possible solution to this would be to take Bahr's idea--a derived score from the DEX attribute--but make it so that the "highest" or "best" DEX-based skill code ALSO got factored into the defense score.
For example: [(DEX code) + (best DEX skill's code)] x 3.5 = Dodge
This keeps the static defense element there to speed up combat. It also somewhat avoids the "skill tax" a bit because, even though players might still have to increase 1 DEX skill to keep their Dodge high, they have some freedom of choice within the attribute to do it.
Maybe there are better ways to do it, though: like in 4E D&D, how the highest ability out of STR and CON would modify a character's Fortitude Defense. Applying that thinking to Star Wars, a character's Dodge value might rely on Dexterity OR Perception, since noticing things and reacting to them quickly are both theoretically important to jumping out of a blaster's way. Could be a way to "spread the love" a bit more with different character builds.
Food for thought.
| Quote: | | A few of us may have a concise overview list, but the downside of general posts like this is that discussions end up being about the items on the lists (which has already happened in this thread) so we just have an unwieldy thread that is talking about many different topics instead of parsing them out into discussions in applicable threads for each. You probably already observed that topic drift is an accepted reality of the format here. Discussing a lot of different rule modifications in a single thread just amplifies the phenomenon. |
Yes, I have already, ha! And that is entirely my fault due to the general nature of the question I asked. I will gather up the list of potential issues and post one more time below, and as things come onto my radar, maybe I'll come back and update the list. What do you think?
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"To crush your PC's, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of the players!" |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14212
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| pulphummock wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | I still see this game played, but most gamers i know of personally, do 5e adnd or pathfinder, these days... Or so it seems.
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Oh, you're totally right. I was just trying to work in an Obi-Wan quote, ha!
| Quote: | Bucket o dice is why i see lots of folks playing DW d6..
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Haha! Yes, I'm one of them! And I can count fast. But I've played with too many players who, unfortunately, could not.
Nice to meet you, gar! Seen a lot of your posts over the years, too. |
Glad to meet you too.. And i've known some adults, who had issues with the PIP dice, but not with the numbered die.. While i knew folks, who regardless, could count up 8+ dice, faster than some folks could add up 4 die..
| pulphummock wrote: |
Honestly, I can't even think of any other systems that use a "dodge" or "defense" roll, ha! Except maybe Milton Bradley's Heroquest (the skulls cancelled out by the white/black shields; a rules-adjacent idea, but not quite the same thing). |
Shadowrun, White wolfs entire world of darkness system. ALL use dodge/defense rolls..
| pulphummock wrote: | | Dodge skill tax: I mean that it's a skill everyone sort of "has" to buy because, if they don't, they...well...die. Lol. So, it feels like a "tax" because it's such a necessity. |
First time i've heard 'having to get xyz skill' as being a tax...
So by that logic, blaster, brawl, starship gunnery, starship piloting, all skills "folks need", are also taxes..
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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| Quote: | Shadowrun, White wolfs entire world of darkness system. ALL use dodge/defense rolls..
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Ah, I never got into any of those games. I was Star Wars and D&D for the most part. (Oh, how I miss the 80's and 90's.)
| Quote: | | First time i've heard 'having to get xyz skill' as being a tax... So by that logic, blaster, brawl, starship gunnery, starship piloting, all skills "folks need", are also taxes.. |
Good point. I think the idea is that "starship piloting" isn't quite a necessity for every character, while dodge most definitely is. Blaster, on the other hand, very likely would be, too...unless playing a Jedi who is more than a novice, I suppose, in a higher-powered game.
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"To crush your PC's, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of the players!" |
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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Potential Changes in a WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition
1. Math issues. (For example, the game’s result difference level ranges seem arbitrary, while skill difficulty level ranges are not consistent and easy-to-memorize.)
2. No droid damage rules!
3. Spaceship damage is woefully lacking in possible systems that could be damaged.
4. Soaking blaster bolts.
5. No damage control system (no improper fast jury-rigged 'repairs').
6. No important PC/mook differentiation in character damage.
7. Healing rules are wonky (medpacs are too unrestricted and make bacta tanks near obsolete), plus there are no surgery rules so all (A) medicine does is work bacta tanks.
8. No damage accumulation rules for protection, armor, and non-vehicular weapons.
9. Vehicle and spaceship damage have too much duplication and inappropriately leveled results.
10. Repair times are not based on level of damage (and are too short for major repairs), and there is no unity of repair time frames.
11. Like a lot of WEG rules, there are edge situations not addressed or too vague.
12. Force as a non-attribute.
13. Cleaned up Force powers.
14. Skill list reduction.
15. Revision and expanding of advanced skills.
16. “Reaction” skills—would they stay in the game?
17. Adjusting the Force power curve.
18. Dark side points—a more cinematic way? (Or fine the way it is?)
19. Keyword/terminology codification across the system.
20. Character building options to make non-Force-sensitive characters (and Jedi characters) feel a little more different from each other.
21. Static defenses.
22. Simplifying the wound level chart.
23. Dice caps for a “mortal limit” (say, 10D or 12D).
24. The wild die’s natural 6 giving a “boon” in lieu of exploding if the result already beat the difficulty.
25. The “Dodge” skill tax.
26. Character points being used to increase rolls and advance the character. (Splitting needed?)
27. Cinematic lightsaber dueling rules!
28. Invincible Wookies. (I've heard of this problem but never encountered it myself.)
If anybody thinks of any to add, by all means, let me know and I'll update the list.
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"Dungeon Master, what is good in life?"
"To crush your PC's, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of the players!" |
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| pulphummock wrote: | Potential Changes in a WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition
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Love the list! many of those are in my house rules documents - but a couple are not - so will give something to think about (or bring back out of my notes as "hmmm what do I do about".
Here are a few more for you....
A list of other areas that I feel could use some attention
Simplified background options, with less options for min/maxing
Revised scale rules and groupings.
Difference between being "stunned" and hit by "stun" weapons.
Damage from weapons on "stun" being simplified and unified.
Characters helping one another directly (without a leader).
Characters hindering opponents, social or physically
Revised fire rates, and simplified auto fire rules.
Enhanced yet simplified fatigue and exhaustion system
Ganging up / flanking situation modifiers.
Simplified rules for using ranged weapons in melee.
Simplified reach rules.
Simplified leadership and command rules
Clarified spaceship movement and maneuver options
Simple power routing rules.
Unified repair rules
Updated force behavior / dark side rules to reflect later star wars content.
Rules to Ready an action
Revised and simplified area damage attacks (not rolling different damage per target in AOE).
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Some folks might not agree with everything on the list - but many do agree that many of them are indeed worthy of house rules - and a lot of high quality house rules right here on the pit!
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Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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I feel I need to address some of the specific requested changes for a third edition as they seem based on a lack of knowledge of the existing RAW or misconceptions of causes. I will only address the ones that bug me most as they have been reoccurring topics in the forums lately"
| pulphummock wrote: | Potential Changes in a WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition
1. Math issues. (For example, the game’s result difference level ranges seem arbitrary, while skill difficulty level ranges are not consistent and easy-to-memorize.) |
I would disagree. Even though I have not played in almost 17 years I can still remember all of the difficulty ranges (numerical and descriptive) quite easily.
| Quote: | | 4. Soaking blaster bolts. |
This is already the intent of the damage resistance rolls - unless you mean to do away with it, which would likely change the core of the game.
| Quote: | | 6. No important PC/mook differentiation in character damage. |
This is really up to the Game Master to design in, but I never had a problem with this. A blaster is a blaster. This is more easily addressed by having weaker NPCs (mooks) with lower skills
| Quote: | | 7. Healing rules are wonky (medpacs are too unrestricted and make bacta tanks near obsolete), plus there are no surgery rules so all (A) medicine does is work bacta tanks. |
As I recall under RAW med pacs were not unrestricted, and each successive use in one day increased the difficulty. not to mention you will run out of medpacs as they get used up. After that it was up to natural healing and recovery rolls, or a bacta tank, making them far from obsolete. Advanced rules for healing and trauma would be nice though - especially for, say, resuscitation from death resulting from drowning, choking, or failing a mortal wound check...perhaps someone had been working on such rules at one time, maybe they will turn up here.
| Quote: | | 8. No damage accumulation rules for protection, armor, and non-vehicular weapons. |
Rules for damaging armor and protection are in the Combat and Injuries chapter of 2R&E chapter starting on page 94. Rules for damaging weapons are also there (page 95)
| Quote: | | 22. Simplifying the wound level chart. |
The wound level chart is already very simple compared to other games.
| Quote: | | 23. Dice caps for a “mortal limit” (say, 10D or 12D). |
If you are referring to attributes, there are already species maximum die caps, if you are referring to skills, well that is counter intuitive to the cinematic and larger than life scale the Star Wars RPG represents.
| Quote: | | 25. The “Dodge” skill tax. |
Since there is no such thing, I see no reason to address it. I have had plenty of players not take dodge skill, and yet survive and thrive by using cunning, caution, skill, and when in combat, cover and tactics.
| Quote: | | 28. Invincible Wookies. (I've heard of this problem but never encountered it myself.) |
There really is no such thing except when a power gamer convinces a GM to allow stacking unheard of armor on a max Strength Wookie - and then they are still not invincible, and this is not just a Wookie issue. This has been hashed to death in numerous topics here on this forum and elsewhere. Unfortunately the problem that leads to this issue is not the Wookies, or Droids, or other aliens as written in the game, or even their stat ranges (as none of the pre-created templates have them at Max Strength Die Code to my knowledge) it is one of player and GM mentality and the power gaming issue over all.
While there are many things that could be changed to improve the core rules of D6, I do not feel discussing a third edition as a fan work is productive. Sadly WEG is gone, and the SWD6 license is long dead. Unfortunately many of the truly broken things (the force) have too many differing views and opinions as is evident from the many discussions in these forums. I, personally have never found the force over powered or game breaking as has been a constant complaint here, and I suspect the reason may be other GM's forgetting MAPs on force powers. Even looking at the RAW for Lightsaber Combat, just to activate it takes 2 powers with Moderate difficulty on both and you are already at -1D to both... keeping both powers up puts you at -2D on all further actions. So, unless you have those two force powers at minimum 4D each, you're netting a whole 1D bonus to all attacks and parries. A force using player dumping 6D of his staring skills into the three force abilities is only starting at 3D in each...and that leaves a whole 1D for other skills - often putting them at disadvantage for early games (and making Lightsaber combat difficult to raise without spending CP).
Dark Side Points have had some official changes in WEG books released toward the end, and I liked those updates, and they would be welcome in a revised edition. Though even on the Dark Side issue there are so many differing views even here in the forums.
There was more I wanted to say, but having trouble keeping train of thought through pain, so I will leave it here.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| pulphummock wrote: | Potential Changes in a WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition
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I will comment on the ones i see a need to do something with..
| pulphummock wrote: | 3. Spaceship damage is woefully lacking in possible systems that could be damaged.
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Agreed. Especially with Ionization. That's why i made my own HR for that.
| pulphummock wrote: | 4. Soaking blaster bolts.
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In what manner do you think that needs to get changed/? Do you think no one should be able to soak a shot??
| pulphummock wrote: | 7. Healing rules are wonky (medpacs are too unrestricted and make bacta tanks near obsolete), plus there are no surgery rules so all (A) medicine does is work bacta tanks.
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I forget where i saw the HR, but one i liked, was that you can't use more than ONE medpack on someone in the same 'calender day' in game. Another was if you rolled 5 or LESS on the first aid roll, you 'over drove the body' so can't use another med pack for 24 hrs..
| pulphummock wrote: | 8. No damage accumulation rules for protection, armor, and non-vehicular weapons.
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There ARE damage rules for armor and such.
| pulphummock wrote: | 18. Dark side points—a more cinematic way? (Or fine the way it is?)
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Personally i like it as is, with ONE edit. NON force users should be able to get them WITHOUT having to do 'extreme evil while ON a force point only'..
| pulphummock wrote: | 19. Keyword/terminology codification across the system.
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Such as??
| pulphummock wrote: | 21. Static defenses.
25. The “Dodge” skill tax.
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Static defense works ok for games like adnd... IMO NOT for Star wars.
| Pakman wrote: | Revised scale rules and groupings.
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Agreed. A ship at say 120 meters, should NOT be the same bloody scale as one at 2k!
| Pakman wrote: | Difference between being "stunned" and hit by "stun" weapons.
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I forgot who suggested it, but change the wording to "when you receive a damage result of 1 to 4 over soak, you get 'fatigued' for this round and the next. IF suffering a # of fatigue results equal to your stamina rating, you are knocked out. While fatigued, you are penalized -1d PER fatigue point."
| Pakman wrote: | Characters hindering opponents, social or physically
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In what manner for the 'hindering'/?
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14212
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | This is really up to the Game Master to design in, but I never had a problem with this. A blaster is a blaster. This is more easily addressed by having weaker NPCs (mooks) with lower skills
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Also Mooks generally only have a handful of CP if any at all, and NO FP..
| KageRyu wrote: | As I recall under RAW med pacs were not unrestricted, and each successive use in one day increased the difficulty. not to mention you will run out of medpacs as they get used up. After that it was up to natural healing and recovery rolls, or a bacta tank, making them far from obsolete. Advanced rules for healing and trauma would be nice though - especially for, say, resuscitation from death resulting from drowning, choking, or failing a mortal wound check...perhaps someone had been working on such rules at one time, maybe they will turn up here.
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Over on the Holonet a long time ago, someone did suggest that "when using medpacks', it doesn't actually HEAL the wound, it just let's you act as if you were NOT wounded for a certain time (say 1-2 hrs), so you would STILL need med bays or bacta tanks..
| KageRyu wrote: | If you are referring to attributes, there are already species maximum die caps, if you are referring to skills, well that is counter intuitive to the cinematic and larger than life scale the Star Wars RPG represents.
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Plus the whole "at this D value you are the best in the system, at that value you are the best in the sector and so on". BUT i do agree in some way, that once you get at the 10d or higher level, it should be MUCH harder to improve than just the CP cost alone..
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pulphummock
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Joined: 04 Feb 2023
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Hi KageRyu! Thanks for your input. (And sorry to hear that you are in pain. I hope you are well.)
So, I have included all of these items on my list because either someone eminent (like Whill, who shared his own list with me) mentioned them or because I've seen them mentioned repeatedly in the forums and elsewhere outside of the forums.
Let me ask you the question this way: even if you disagree with many of the items on the list, do you think that a fictional WEG, in an alternate universe, would consider modifying/patching some (or all) of these rules for the simple fact that these rules are readily complained about or argued over by long-time players? (Even if you don't think a particular rule is a problem?) And if your answer is "yes," then what rules in the current R&E/REUP game would likely be getting a hard look at them?
(Again, my apologies for being vague and lacking specificity in my question.)
| Quote: | | While there are many things that could be changed to improve the core rules of D6, I do not feel discussing a third edition as a fan work is productive. Sadly WEG is gone, and the SWD6 license is long dead. |
Things can always change. I mean, they brought Palpatine back!
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"To crush your PC's, see their character sheets pile before you, and hear the lamentation of the players!" |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:54 am Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| pulphummock wrote: | | I love the nuance, myself. But I wonder if a redesign in the 2020's would silently cap the total dice codes at 10D-12D just because of current trends. |
If you are just talking about an upper bucket size limit for your d6s, that is much less objectionable to me than rolling a single d20.
| pulphummock wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I have adjusted the difficulty chart so that the die code ranges directly correspond to die code probabilities, so 1D does indeed equal 3.5 (so in effect the pattern is 2D = 7). |
I read this post a long time ago, actually. One of my favorites. In fact, if I'm being honest here, it was the post that really got me thinking about little ways to improve the D6 system many years ago. (It's been on my mind a long time.) I actually instituted that rule in the game I was about to run back then, and it worked like a charm, I thought. Even though multiples of 7 sound tougher than multiples of 3 or 5, just about everybody I know did the "multiplication songs" back in elementary school, so multiplications of 1 - 10 seem intuitive to most! |
I'm glad you made the transition from lurker to give me the feedback that these mods worked for you.
| pulphummock wrote: | | Whill wrote: | As far as the die roll difference ranges on the wound chart, I've tried different things and played around with the wound system. One issue was that each level corresponded to a different sized range, and I have eliminated that but making all ranges 4. As far as that particular choice, it was a matter of finding the right deadliness level, and 4 each kept it close to RAW. For this I didn't feel it is important to be exactly 3.5 each because whatever I chose it is the same for NPCs and PCs. See the link below that goes to my wound system for more details...
https://rancorpit.com/jotw/damage/characters_creatures.html |
Aaaand here is one of your other posts which I very much enjoyed and ALSO implemented in that very same campaign. |
Glad to be of service!
| pulphummock wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Yeah, they went a little crazy with skills in 2e. Now my skill list is somewhere between 1e and 2e. |
Now that is a far better skill list |
I like this guy.
| pulphummock wrote: | Dodge skill tax: I mean that it's a skill everyone sort of "has" to buy because, if they don't, they...well...die. Lol. So, it feels like a "tax" because it's such a necessity.
In the Zorro RPG, Alan Bahr made it so that "Dodge" was a defense score (instead of a necessary skill) that you derived from a character's DEX code (5 x attribute code). For example, a 2D DEX had a dodge of 10, 3D DEX had a dodge of 15, etc. Problem with this rule is that your Dodge doesn't improve even as the bad guys' shootin' skill increases. (Yeeeeeehaw!)
Bahr's rule was similar to Mini-Six, which did a static defense, but they still used the "Dodge" skill itself to do so: 3.5 x (DEX code + Dodge code); so, you still had to "buy" up Dodge to keep your butt from dying.
I think one possible solution to this would be to take Bahr's idea--a derived score from the DEX attribute--but make it so that the "highest" or "best" DEX-based skill code ALSO got factored into the defense score.
For example: [(DEX code) + (best DEX skill's code)] x 3.5 = Dodge
This keeps the static defense element there to speed up combat. It also somewhat avoids the "skill tax" a bit because, even though players might still have to increase 1 DEX skill to keep their Dodge high, they have some freedom of choice within the attribute to do it.
Maybe there are better ways to do it, though: like in 4E D&D, how the highest ability out of STR and CON would modify a character's Fortitude Defense. Applying that thinking to Star Wars, a character's Dodge value might rely on Dexterity OR Perception, since noticing things and reacting to them quickly are both theoretically important to jumping out of a blaster's way. Could be a way to "spread the love" a bit more with different character builds. |
If you don't want to "tax" players by making the dodge skill feel like an obligatory skill dice expenditure in char gen, a much easier solution than all those derived stats would be to simply just give the players a free 1D for dodge.
I remind my players that it is always better to not get hit in the first place then to try to survive blaster bolt hits. I give my players an extra 1D for skill dice allocation and only a strong recommendation that they put at least 1D into the dodge skill. Virtually all PCs in my game (except for some that started with a DEX 4D or higher) have started with 1D in the dodge skill. Furthermore, I require all skill dice allocations to be explainable by the PCs background if not obvious by template type, but the first 1D put in the dodge skill is the exception – It can just be thought of as luck (so players aren't "taxed" to explain it). 2D in dodge, then yeah, there has to be a reason in the background for that.
I've also come at this concern from another angle, by making the dodge skill even more valuable in my game than in RAW. For all modes of movement in the game, such as spaceships, vehicles, characters swimming; they all use the same skill for both the movement roll and "dodge" rolls in RAW – except for ground movement by characters on their feet. That is the single case where they split dodging and movement into two separate skills: dodge and running. That makes no sense to me. So I have merged dodge and running into a combo-skill called agility, which also includes catching things and general feats of balance on a surface in the presence of gravity. (Also, the agility skill may also be used to avoid brawling and melee attack types at half the agility roll). Agility is the single most important skill in my game, so I just haven't had the experience of players feeling they are "taxed" by putting a 1D there, to not die.
The problem I see with your idea of making dodge equal to whatever the character's highest DEX skill is that I don't see someone's skill with shooting energy weapons, throwing grenades, or picking pockets determining their ability to dodge range attacks.
Where I do combine DEX and PER is in my derived stat governing initiative, which the idea of is related to the idea of dodging. But I prefer to just include DEX as a factor in initiative and keep dodging ability as part of a DEX skill. YMMV.
| pulphummock wrote: | | I will gather up the list of potential issues and post one more time below, and as things come onto my radar, maybe I'll come back and update the list. What do you think? |
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pulphummock
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:57 am Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| Whill wrote: | If you are just talking about an upper bucket size limit for your d6s, that is much less objectionable to me than rolling a single d20.
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LMAO. (This is why I come here.)
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pulphummock
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:06 am Post subject: Re: WEG Star Wars 3rd Edition? |
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| Whill wrote: | The problem I see with your idea of making dodge equal to whatever the character's highest DEX skill is that I don't see someone's skill with shooting energy weapons, throwing grenades, or picking pockets determining their ability to dodge range attacks.
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Good counterpoint!
Hmmm. Maybe 2-3 different skills related to noticing/perception and reactions/speed/reflexes could be substituted for a broader "Dodge" defense, to at least permit character build variety (as long as the substituted skills make sense, of course).
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pulphummock
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I will comment on the ones i see a need to do something with..
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Thanks for all the feedback!
| Quote: | 4. Soaking blaster bolts.
8. No damage accumulation rules for protection, armor, and non-vehicular weapons. |
I think these came from Whill's list that he shared in a previous post a few back, so I'll let him answer that. (Haven't quite figured out how to link a specific post from another thread under this one or else I'd link it for you. Sorry!)
Getting sleepy-eyed now. (It's 1:07am where I'm at in Delaware.) But I will come back to all these in a day or so.
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pulphummock
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Here are a few more for you....
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Thanks again, Pak! I'll study these more in the next few days. Happy to have met you, my friend.
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | I feel I need to address some of the specific requested changes for a third edition as they seem based on a lack of knowledge of the existing RAW or misconceptions of causes. I will only address the ones that bug me most as they have been reoccurring topics in the forums lately"
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| Quote: | | Soaking blaster bolts. |
This is already the intent of the damage resistance rolls - unless you mean to do away with it, which would likely change the core of the game. |
| garhkal wrote: | | In what manner do you think that needs to get changed/? Do you think no one should be able to soak a shot?? |
By this he is referring to game mechanically being able to soak blaster bolts negatively affecting your disbelief suspension because that never happens in the films. In other words, having rules to prevent that when it might, such as this. Me nudging some soak results to stunned has not at all affected the core of the game.
| KageRyu wrote: | | Quote: | | No important PC/mook differentiation in character damage. |
This is really up to the Game Master to design in, but I never had a problem with this. A blaster is a blaster. This is more easily addressed by having weaker NPCs (mooks) with lower skills |
Mooks tend to have lower skills than PCs, but the ability to resist damage is an attribute, not a skill. Goons can be strong. I removed 'wounded twice' and 'mortally wounded' from the mook damage rules. In my game, If a mook who is wounded is wounded again, they go straight to incapacitated. If a mook is mortally wounded, they are instead just killed. Mooks don't need wounded twice or mortally wounded. I've handled it this way since the late 80s (yes I had wounded twice as a house rule back in 1e, but I only applied it to PCs and important NPCs).
| KageRyu wrote: | | Quote: | | No damage accumulation rules for protection, armor, and non-vehicular weapons. |
Rules for damaging armor and protection are in the Combat and Injuries chapter of 2R&E chapter starting on page 94. Rules for damaging weapons are also there (page 95) |
| garhkal wrote: | | There ARE damage rules for armor and such. |
There are no damage accumulation rules for those things in RAW. Accumulation rules are statements that describe what happens when something that is already damaged is damaged again, such as "Lightly damaged armor/suits that are lightly damaged again becomes heavily damaged." RAW gives us damage accumulation rules for characters, vehicles, and starships. That's it. For protection, armor, weapons, and objects, we only know what happens the first time they are damaged from an undamaged state.
For droids, it is even worse. RAW gives us droid repair rules, but there is no damage system for droids in RAW at all! My website of damage house rules below addresses all these things:
Star Wars Damage D6
| KageRyu wrote: | | Quote: | | Simplifying the wound level chart. |
The wound level chart is already very simple compared to other games. |
I don't think it is that complex either, but I think he is comparing it to D&D which just has Hit Points with no differing wound statuses on the way down to 0. That is certainly easier for players, but ridiculous for disbelief suspension. It doesn't make sense that a character or creature can take damage and just keep operating at the same exact ability level without being affected by wounds. Not even for fantasy.
I think most new players to D6 pick up the damage system fairly quickly, as long as they aren't too distracted by their own whining that Hit Points was easier.
| KageRyu wrote: | | While there are many things that could be changed to improve the core rules of D6, I do not feel discussing a third edition as a fan work is productive. Sadly WEG is gone, and the SWD6 license is long dead. |
I agree, but he seems to have mainly written the hypothetical OP as a way to help generate a laundry list of things that need updated in R&E. It is applicable to house rules or fan editions.
| KageRyu wrote: | | Unfortunately many of the truly broken things (the force) have too many differing views and opinions as is evident from the many discussions in these forums. I, personally have never found the force over powered or game breaking as has been a constant complaint here, and I suspect the reason may be other GM's forgetting MAPs on force powers. Even looking at the RAW for Lightsaber Combat, just to activate it takes 2 powers with Moderate difficulty on both and you are already at -1D to both... keeping both powers up puts you at -2D on all further actions. So, unless you have those two force powers at minimum 4D each, you're netting a whole 1D bonus to all attacks and parries. A force using player dumping 6D of his staring skills into the three force abilities is only starting at 3D in each...and that leaves a whole 1D for other skills - often putting them at disadvantage for early games (and making Lightsaber combat difficult to raise without spending CP). |
The general issue with Force PCs in RAW is that they start out too weak (like you said), but if they survive and adventure in a long enough campaign, they can eventually overshadow the other PCs. I've never had campaigns where Force PCs advance to Jedi Knight level abilities, but I can see how RAW could allow this, even considering MAPs.
I've also heard some say that the game breaks down for all characters at high levels of ability. I can see how that could be possible, but I have slower than RAW character advancement so it never gets to that level in my game. Some problems seem to me to have very simple solutions, but some like more complex solutions.
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