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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Since most teachers IRL need 'degrees', to become a teacher, scholar as a pre-req i can easily see.. |
Okay, but you don't have to be a trained teacher to be able to teach someone. An illiterate tribesman can still teach a child how to weave a basket or shoot a bow-and-arrow. Teaching doesn't require formal structure, just the ability to pass on knowledge in a manner that's understood by the recipient. |
Very true, but you also wouldn't even need an instruction skill to pass on knowledge. The existence of a teaching skill doesn't suddenly require its use. You can still train the normal way in RAW. What we are talking about here would just be an add-on for possible additional benefits, like reduced training times. |
Maybe we could have it that to teach regular skills, just requires you to have that skill. BUT to teach someone anything advanced, requires 'instruction'?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Maybe we could have it that to teach regular skills, just requires you to have that skill. BUT to teach someone anything advanced, requires 'instruction'? |
I don't think that's necessary. Based on what Whill and I were talking about above, the baseline requirement to teach a subject is just knowledge of the subject in question. Natural ability and/or formal training in how to teach the subject would be an advantage above and beyond the subject matter. I'd go the other way and have the Skill default to the Attribute, so that a character with no dice in Instruction, but 4D in Perception would still be able to roll to generate a bonus.
However, it would make sense to have the Difficulty for Instruction scale up based on the degree of complexity of what's being taught, like how other skills have a basic Difficulty level derived from the task being performed. Something like this:Student's Skill Level = Instruction Difficulty
1D-2D+2 = Very Easy
3D-4D+2 = Easy
5D-6D+2 = Moderate
7D-8D+2 = Difficulty
9D-10D+2 = Very Difficult
11D and up = Heroic
Advanced Skills increase all Difficulties by 1 Level
Regardless of Difficulty Level, the Instructor must have atleast 2D more than the Student in the Skill being taught. Then from there, you have a graduated Success Table:Instruction Roll Beats Difficulty by # = Time/CP Cost Modifier
0-3 = None
4-7 = Reduce Time Taken by 15%
8-11 = Reduce Time Taken by 20%
12-15 = Reduce Time Taken by 25%, and CP Cost by -1
16-19 = Reduce Time Taken by 30%, and CP Cost by -1
20+ = Reduce Time Taken by 35%, and CP Cost by -2 There could also potentially be a Failure Table for when an instructor fails their Instruction roll and makes a subject harder / more costly to learn, such as:Instruction Roll Fails Difficulty by # = Time/CP Cost Modifier
1-4 = Increase Time Taken by 10%
5-8 = Increase Time Taken by 15%
9-12 = Increase Time Taken by 20%
13-16 = Increase Time Taken by 25%, and CP Cost by +1
17-20 = Increase Time Taken by 30%, and CP Cost by +1
21+ = Increase Time Taken by 35%, and CP Cost by +2
EDIT: This last one should only really be applied if you make the Instruction skill roll mandatory for all training attempts. Otherwise, an instructor could potentially just choose not to roll Instruction, and thus not incur a bonus or penalty. These charts are based on your revised rule with reduced CP Modifiers, but I'm partial to your original version, as CP Costs are a more concrete advantage to characters than a modification to time that almost always happens off-screen anyway. CPs saved are CPs that can be spent on other things, thus improving the character slightly faster; training time has little meaning beyond accounting for time spent between missions.
EDIT: As an Addendum, here's are the modified Success / Failure Tables using the costs outlined in garhkal's original post.Success Table:Instruction Roll Beats Difficulty by # = Time/CP Cost Modifier
0-3 = None
4-7 = Reduce Time Taken by 15%
8-11 = Reduce Time Taken by 20%, and CP Cost by -1
12-15 = Reduce Time Taken by 25%, and CP Cost by -2
16-19 = Reduce Time Taken by 30%, and CP Cost by -3
20+ = Reduce Time Taken by 35%, and CP Cost by -4 Failure Table:Instruction Roll Fails Difficulty by # = Time/CP Cost Modifier
1-4 = Increase Time Taken by 10%
5-8 = Increase Time Taken by 15%
9-12 = Increase Time Taken by 20%, and CP Cost by +1
13-16 = Increase Time Taken by 25%, and CP Cost by +2
17-20 = Increase Time Taken by 30%, and CP Cost by +3
21+ = Increase Time Taken by 35%, and CP Cost by +4
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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So, I'm trying to do a write-up for the Instruction skill, and I've had some new thoughts:
1) Time Taken is obviously variable, based on the listed time requirement for the student to learn the skill, but some skills allow the character to make multiple skill rolls for an activity occurring over an extended period of time. Should it just be a single skill roll, even for a task that covers several weeks of time spent, or should it be possible to subdivide the Instruction into multiple rolls? If the roll is broken down into multiple rolls, how should the results of said rolls be aggregated?
2) How would Instruction work in combination with the Preparation and Rushing rules? Would it work for the Instructor to double the Time Taken in order to roll an extra 1D? Would the potential benefit even be worth it? Conversely, could an Instructor rush things and do the teaching in half the time, while suffering the appropriate penalties?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:05 am Post subject: |
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From training in the mil, you could separate the 'instruction' into course parts.. Say "General theory, General practical, Specific theory, Specific practical":...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | From training in the mil, you could separate the 'instruction' into course parts.. Say "General theory, General practical, Specific theory, Specific practical":... |
But how would that translate across into a character learning a skill? There isn't really a way to break skills as used into the game into theory, practical, etc; it's all aggregated into an increase in dice values.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Anyway, here's a write-up for the skill...
Instruction
(Perception)
Time Taken: Varies based on the Skill the Student is attempting to improve.
Specializations: Any Skill, Advanced Skill or Specialization.
Description: Instruction represents a character's ability to convey information to a student. Depending on how well the Instructor rolls, the student's Time Spent and CP Cost to improve the skill may be increased or decreased, as the ability of the Instructor to communicate and explain the necessary concepts directly affects how well the student absorbs, processes and applies the information in practice.
Difficulty: Varies based on the skill level the student is attempting to improve to, using the following table:Student's Target Skill Level = Instruction Difficulty
1D-2D+2 = Very Easy
3D-4D+2 = Easy
5D-6D+2 = Moderate
7D-8D+2 = Difficulty
9D-10D+2 = Very Difficult
11D and up = Heroic
Advanced Skills increase all Difficulties by 1 Level.
Regardless of Difficulty Level, the Instructor must have at least 2D more than the Student in the Skill being taught. Result: Depending on how well the instructor rolls, apply the appropriate modifiers to the student's Time Taken and CP Cost:Success Table:Instruction Roll Beats Difficulty by # = Time/CP Cost Modifier
0-3 = None
4-7 = Reduce Time Taken by 15%
8-11 = Reduce Time Taken by 20%, and CP Cost by -1
12-15 = Reduce Time Taken by 25%, and CP Cost by -2
16-19 = Reduce Time Taken by 30%, and CP Cost by -3
20+ = Reduce Time Taken by 35%, and CP Cost by -4 Failure Table:Instruction Roll Fails Difficulty by # = Time/CP Cost Modifier
1-4 = Increase Time Taken by 10%
5-8 = Increase Time Taken by 15%
9-12 = Increase Time Taken by 20%, and CP Cost by +1
13-16 = Increase Time Taken by 25%, and CP Cost by +2
17-20 = Increase Time Taken by 30%, and CP Cost by +3
21+ = Increase Time Taken by 35%, and CP Cost by +4 Regardless of the CP Cost Modifier, the number of CP can never be less than 1/2 or more that 2x the starting value. Teaching Groups: When teaching groups of students, there is a large degree of overlap in many tasks. Thus, Instruction isn't penalized as heavily when teaching multiple students. Use the following table to determine penalties:Number of Students = Instruction Penalty
1 = None
2 = -1
3 = -2
4 = -1D
5-8 = -1D+1
9-12 = -1D+2
13-16 = -2D
17-32 = -2D+1
33-48 = -2D+2
49-64 = -3D
65-128 = -3D+1
129-192 = -3D+2
193-256 = -4D
257-512 = -4D+1
513-768 = -4D+2
769- 1,024 = 5D
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds very neat...
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:06 pm Post subject: Instruction |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Instruction
(Perception)
Time Taken: Varies based on the Skill the Student is attempting to improve.
Specializations: Any Skill, Advanced Skill or Specialization.
Description: Instruction represents a character's ability to convey information to a student. Depending on how well the Instructor rolls, the student's Time Spent and CP Cost to improve the skill may be increased or decreased, as the ability of the Instructor to communicate and explain the necessary concepts directly affects how well the student absorbs, processes and applies the information in practice.
Difficulty: Varies based on the skill level the student is attempting to improve to, using the following table:Student's Target Skill Level = Instruction Difficulty
1D-2D+2 = Very Easy
3D-4D+2 = Easy
5D-6D+2 = Moderate
7D-8D+2 = Difficulty
9D-10D+2 = Very Difficult
11D and up = Heroic
Advanced Skills increase all Difficulties by 1 Level.
Regardless of Difficulty Level, the Instructor must have at least 2D more than the Student in the Skill being taught. Result: Depending on how well the instructor rolls, apply the appropriate modifiers to the student's Time Taken and CP Cost:Success Table:Instruction Roll Beats Difficulty by # = Time/CP Cost Modifier
0-3 = None
4-7 = Reduce Time Taken by 15%
8-11 = Reduce Time Taken by 20%, and CP Cost by -1
12-15 = Reduce Time Taken by 25%, and CP Cost by -2
16-19 = Reduce Time Taken by 30%, and CP Cost by -3
20+ = Reduce Time Taken by 35%, and CP Cost by -4 Failure Table:Instruction Roll Fails Difficulty by # = Time/CP Cost Modifier
1-4 = Increase Time Taken by 10%
5-8 = Increase Time Taken by 15%
9-12 = Increase Time Taken by 20%, and CP Cost by +1
13-16 = Increase Time Taken by 25%, and CP Cost by +2
17-20 = Increase Time Taken by 30%, and CP Cost by +3
21+ = Increase Time Taken by 35%, and CP Cost by +4 Regardless of the CP Cost Modifier, the number of CP can never be less than 1/2 or more that 2x the starting value. |
That works. Since the Training Time can go up or down from the baseline, I take it that with this rule an instruction roll is required for the teacher when a character is getting trained in a skill, right? So if the trainer doesn't have the skill, they just roll base Perception?
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Mamatried
Commodore
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| that would make sense Imo |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Instruction |
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| Whill wrote: | | Since the Training Time can go up or down from the baseline, I take it that with this rule an instruction roll is required for the teacher when a character is getting trained in a skill, right? So if the trainer doesn't have the skill, they just roll base Perception? |
Exactly. Like any skill, it defaults to the Attribute. I still haven't quite figured out how I want it to interface with the Preparation and Rushing rules, but I figured I'd at least post what I have.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Since this seems more class/group use, how many 'students' could one instructor "Teach" at once?
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Since this seems more class/group use, how many 'students' could one instructor "Teach" at once? |
Good Question.
I would say maybe limited by dice,
So for 1 Student it is no penalty.
then have it "group" based in 5s or 10s
so +5 students will maybe give the instructor a -2 Pip
+10 students will give -1D
+15 Students -2D
etc
or something like that, with the penalty more severe the more people, this also makes for "teachers" basically hightly specialized instuctors focusing also on groups. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Since this seems more class/group use, how many 'students' could one instructor "Teach" at once? |
My rule of thumb is a +/- 1D every time the number involved doubles or halves. So, if you're teaching two students, it's a -1D penalty, four is -2D, eight is -3D, sixteen is -4D, etc. It's basically the same progression pattern as my alternate Coordination bonus system. Although, because certain conceptual aspects can be relayed simultaneously, the modifier could be halved so that it only shifts 1D every time the number of students quadruples.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mamatried
Commodore
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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The only real "school" environment we have seen as far as I can rememeber is when Grogu is placed in the "class" on navarro or tattoine.
How many children, what dice level would they be trained to , and how many student did the droid "manage".
if we do the doubling rule, which I do like we can look at maybe a class of 16?
Not sure how many children there was to be honest, but to crunch the numbers
it will be 2 at -1D, 4 at -2D 8 at -3D and 16 at -4D
this gives the teacher droid there I would think a minimum of 7D which is not at all out of the realm.
How many would be in a class lets say at a propper academy, if we look to univerity we can easily have 40-50 to a lecture, and then the dice are suddenly in the 10D range and above, letting us run into the "recomended" dice power levles, with 10D+ being among the best in the galaxy in the skill, and we should have teachers everywhere even at 12D+ and more, so should we at the same time ignore the "power levels" listed where 10D is among the best (handful) in the galaxy |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:13 am Post subject: |
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We also saw the younglings in ATOC and ROTS..
There was also several mentions of 'class instruction' n some of the novels.
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