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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1902
Location: Norway
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 Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Attempt to make the armors even slightly usefull in the game
Light Armor
does only cover parts of the body, usually head and torso
but can also cover in some cases arms and legs.
The heaviest of these armors can provide a slight penalty to sneak and running
Examples
Helmet & Blast West +1
Compnor Assault Trooper Armor +3
MAX DEX Penalty +3
Combat Armor
Full body cover that includes helmet, torso, arms and leg protection front and back
Examples
Stormtrooper Armor Pen +1D
Scout Trooper Armor +3
MAX DEX Penalty
The latter goes for the most bulky versions, though most of these are powered and
includes both comminications and targeting systems, as such they do NOT offer a penalty to the following
skills; Blaster, Blaster Artillery, Misslie Weapons, Vehicle Blasters
+3-1D
Heavy Armor
These are the heaviest armors and some are even to be considered both powered and motorized
Examples
Armored space suit
Space Trooper Armor
Max DEX Penalty 1D-3D
Asmost of these are also powered and include targeting systems they offer no penalty to Blaster and
Blaster Artillery,Missile Weapons, Vehicle Blaster AND Armor weapons skills.
The heaviest armors also have a penalty to Stamina, as the wearer is constanly maipulating the extremely
heavy weight of the armor and will thus eventually become fatigued.
CAN NOT USE THE RUNNING skill, or SNEAK
Basically I am trying to use reason here, and allow the most common weapon use, though at a slight
cost to mobility |
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Naaman
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Armor Penalties |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | A thought on Armor...
I’m sure we’re all aware of how the game stats for armor work: bonus to Soak offset by penalty to Dexterity. However, I’m thinking this is a bit too general.
I’m pretty sure someone has mentioned this in the past (Naaman, I’m almost positive), but perhaps the Armor Dex penalty should be applied to Strength skills and to Dodge/Running, instead.
If you think about it, the main penalizing component of most armor types is going to be the weight, with only the clunkier, joint-armored full suits really justifying a Dexterity penalty. In the case of all the Strength skills, the added weight of lugging around the armor will justify a penalty to Stamina (especially w/r/t the Long Distance Movement rules), Climbing/Jumping and Swimming, as well as Lifting. Penalizing Dodge and Running makes sense for similar reasons.
Thoughts? |
Yes, that was me.
Thinking about it some more, I don't see much reason to penalize running (if using the RAW) since that skill has nothing to do with how fast a character is capable of moving (a failed roll doesn't prevent the character from moving, but rather, results in falling down; and a roll is only triggered when terrain is an issue).
In case the difference matters, I would not "penalize" stamina, but rather, increase the difficulty (in a similar way that you don't apply a penalty to a lifting roll because the object to be lifted weighs more). In actuality, I would not even mess with the interaction between stamina and armor, since lifting covers the ability to "carry" things (as well as how long you can carry them). If anything, I would say stamina sets the limit for how fast (read: far) you can move with a given amount of encumbrance. A house rule for lifting and stamina may be in order, however.
I could see armor having an impact on (or interacting with) all strength skills (other than stamina, unless house ruled), as well as dodge. In situations where the armor changes the wearer's center of gravity (which, for simplicity's sake, I would just say is all armor), any quick, reflexive whole body movements (such as dodge, climbing, jumping, and brawling) would be affected by the wearing of armor. I could even see melee combat, as well, since this involves significant motion in the upper body and footwork/balance is critical to effective melee combat.
One possibility I see is to have purpose built armor which is optimized for certain kinds of fighting. I don't know anything about melee combat, but "gunfighting" armor is designed specifically to protect vital organs while leaving joints free to operate guns effectively (modern armor is designed around combative shooting stances--and vice versa--which are much different than stances developed for unarmored fighting or shooting at things that don't shoot back). If wearing the specialized armor, you take whatever penalties may be appropriate for attack rolls, but not on attack rolls for that kind of combat.
All that being said, it may be worth considering armor as part of a "fighting style" rather than an "add on." Generally speaking, the realities of wearing armor are factored into the way that people trained to use armor would fight.
Lots of ways you could handle that, and assessing penalties may be the most expedient (though I can think of some other options).
Swimming is probably the only movement skill that I'd say should avoid a penalty for armor worn.
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Wouldn't you be MORE likely to go down, swimming in armor than not being in armor?
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Naaman
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cheshire
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Wouldn't you be MORE likely to go down, swimming in armor than not being in armor? |
Survey says...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDatf-VZtg&t=202s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLcT5J7yg9k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwd2ZEav2vE
... definitely more likely to go down.
I'm actually surprised at the results, though. The fact that the guy could stay up at all with Samurai armor is impressive, and I never would have thought that there was actually a traditional Japanese sport around it.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of good suggestions here...
I'm not really in the mood to do a re-write of all the various armor stats, so at the moment, I'm thinking the best approach would be to repurpose existing stats. Something along these lines:1). Existing Dexterity penalties for armor are instead applied to Movement skills: Running, Dodge, Climbing/Jumping, Swimming and Stamina (Stamina being used for the Long Distance Movement rules or extended exertion).
2). If the armor has an official Penalty higher than -1D, the wearer also suffers a Dexterity penalty equal to the listed Penalty -1D. This is also applied to Sneak and Tech rolls. The idea here is to represent how, as armor increases its degree of cover and bulkiness, it can still get in the way of fine motor skills.
3). Power Armor suits negate the Movement Penalty (due to the armor supporting its own weight), but also tend to be bulky and clumsy, and thus suffer the Dexterity penalty listed in #2. It's not ideal, obviously, but IMO it does offer a more realistic take without requiring an extensive re-write.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Funny, the more we're talking about this and thinking of the challenges it would pose in terms of added bulk and weight, it seems to me that if I were to make alterations, I might impose a penalty to STR skills, (though obviously not to damage resistance). It seems like it's harder to swim, the armor would take a toll on stanima, would make it harder to do running/jumping. Brawling might be the only exception.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Funny, the more we're talking about this and thinking of the challenges it would pose in terms of added bulk and weight, it seems to me that if I were to make alterations, I might impose a penalty to STR skills, (though obviously not to damage resistance). It seems like it's harder to swim, the armor would take a toll on stamina, would make it harder to do running/jumping. Brawling might be the only exception. |
That's the direction I'm leaning. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think Strength skill penalties would be the way to go for an Encumbrance rule in general.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Funny, the more we're talking about this and thinking of the challenges it would pose in terms of added bulk and weight, it seems to me that if I were to make alterations, I might impose a penalty to STR skills, (though obviously not to damage resistance). It seems like it's harder to swim, the armor would take a toll on stanima, would make it harder to do running/jumping. Brawling might be the only exception. |
I tend to disagree that brawling should be exempted.
Depending on how you envision brawling, but try to imagine Jet Li or Donny Yen fighting in armor bulky enough to encumber movement.
Roundhouse kicks, rapid punch combos, complex grabs and throws, etc...
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1902
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | Funny, the more we're talking about this and thinking of the challenges it would pose in terms of added bulk and weight, it seems to me that if I were to make alterations, I might impose a penalty to STR skills, (though obviously not to damage resistance). It seems like it's harder to swim, the armor would take a toll on stanima, would make it harder to do running/jumping. Brawling might be the only exception. |
I tend to disagree that brawling should be exempted.
Depending on how you envision brawling, but try to imagine Jet Li or Donny Yen fighting in armor bulky enough to encumber movement.
Roundhouse kicks, rapid punch combos, complex grabs and throws, etc... |
I can agree with penalties like this but how severe should they be?
I will argue at the most a 2 pip penalty, as armor is useless completely if it hinders movemet very much, as in totally useless, I mean we are not talking about ducking behind a steel slab, but if we do look at the armor none of the actual joins is covered with anything but the undralying bodyglove, if we comapre this to a neopren wet suit, I will argue at the most this 2 pip penalty, and even that maybe a bot much.
Again there is not any presidence anywhere that armor is supposed to be so bulky it hinders moement, as again this renders armor completely and utterly useless.
I would argue to settle the movement issue we should look to coplay reinactors, and they even dance, backflip and more in said armor, the same type that actors wore in the movies.
it is a hard plastic molded to fit the limbs, try one one and see how limiting it is with a steel one that is heavier than any plastic, and again we have zero movement issues.
here we see boogiestorm dance in said armors, and the best comparison we have in our real world is a full plate armor whuch bare if a t all hinders movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax7tmaYObIQ&t=107s
again I would say max a 2pip penalty, but a 1D even a 2D penalty if the armor donest fit, so Luke and han solo would have a much more severe penalty to movements than the troopers.
we have to take into account that this is done to balance out a game mechanically, and with house rules we balance and change this even more. |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Well, does any canon armor have a penalty that's greater than 1D? You're saying it should never be bigger than 2 pips, but that's right next door to 1D, and the only stuff that gets 1D is the full body suit, stormtrooper style armor. There's a few that are higher, but they're pretty rare.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | I can agree with penalties like this but how severe should they be? |
Your argument ignores the physicality of the people wearing the armor. Someone who can dance professionally or do a backflip is already well above human average in physical dexterity, and it's logical to state that, if they can perform such feats in armor, they would be even more capable of doing so without armor. And armor worn as part of a dance performance may not be equal in heft to armor designed for use in actual combat.
And as Nexx said, is there really a meaningful difference in penalty between -2 and -1D?
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Mamatried
Commodore
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Well, does any canon armor have a penalty that's greater than 1D? You're saying it should never be bigger than 2 pips, but that's right next door to 1D, and the only stuff that gets 1D is the full body suit, stormtrooper style armor. There's a few that are higher, but they're pretty rare. |
The 2pip penalty would be for the heaviest of heavy armors, and even that is stretching it.
As for the scout trooper, compnor armor and even the regular stormtrooper armor I would go as far have zero penalties THIS is however done in the rules with the arc trooper armor and the commando armor, I doubt any of them are "shot shell" as they are described as being made from the same plastioid alloys +++
And is why I feel the penalties should be removed.
you do not see in any canon or legend scourses that the armor hinders movement, in fact we see the oposite.
as to spce trooper armor and the heaviest of the armors,but Iwould relove it with a redcution of movement from 10 to 8 even down to 6, in some cases and with armor like the space trooper one, I would even say that some skills can not be used, mostly skills basesd on movement, like any and all brawling, running, climbing swimming, and even melee combat and parry as this is to me minimum as bulky as a earth space suit if not more and is not in any way designed to be used "on the ground" |
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Mamatried
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Mamatried wrote: | | I can agree with penalties like this but how severe should they be? |
Your argument ignores the physicality of the people wearing the armor. Someone who can dance professionally or do a backflip is already well above human average in physical dexterity, and it's logical to state that, if they can perform such feats in armor, they would be even more capable of doing so without armor. And armor worn as part of a dance performance may not be equal in heft to armor designed for use in actual combat.
And as Nexx said, is there really a meaningful difference in penalty between -2 and -1D? |
a flat +2 and a 1D has a total of 4 in difference
+2=2 1D6= 1-6 |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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No, it has a maximum of 4 difference, yet only a 1-in-6 chance of achieving that maximum. Which suits my purposes quite nicely when dealing with the potential for a suit of armor to be unexpectedly awkward for some movement or other, while also not being so cumbersome that its weight and bulk can't be overcome by a character with sufficient physical training.
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