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| Which of the following is the primary reason the WEG designers listed Telekinetic Kill as a separate power instead of using the existing rules for the Telekinesis power (expanding as needed to cover) squeezing someone’s throat? |
| A. Telekinetic Kill is listed because Vader force choking someone was the first clear manifestation of the Force? |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
| B. Telekinetic Kill is listed just to make it easier for players to tell that they shouldn't do that because it's on the powers of evil' list? [BTW, those are air quotes, in case that wasn't obvious.] |
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46% |
[ 7 ] |
| C. Telekinetic Kill is listed simply to add one more Force Power for Alter? |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
| D. None of the above (Please explain.) |
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13% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 15 |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I do view Force Lighting as an inherently Dark-Side-powered, so you could only learn it from a Sith Lord and must be on the Dark Side to use it. I remember one conversation years ago where someone tried to suggest that it shouldn't be Dark-only because you could use it for benign purposes, like "jump starting" your car with a dead battery, LOL. But seriously, that would just be making a mockery of Luke's suffering (and Palpatine's evil gloating).
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14212
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Ninja-Bear wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Ninja-Bear wrote: | | I always hated that TK is an auto DSP. You kill someone with a Lightsaber and that’s ok but if you just use TK offensively then it’s a DSP. |
It's the difference between me poisoning you, vice just punching you.. One's outright evil (using the force), one's using a tool.. |
And punching isn’t evil? If I put you in a choke hold control you is that evil? If I use a TK kill to save your life is that evil? I feel the ONLY reason it’s a DSP is that we see Vader use it first. Iirc though Luke does use it in the begging of RotJ getting into Jabba’s palace. |
IF punching is evil, then ANY Form of fighting, where oppoents get injured is evil..
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I have been thinking about this power and how it has been used in canon mostly.
I don't actually think it is a dark side power at all, and mere use should NOT warrant a darkside point.
If we look to Vader using this power, we see it taking time, it is a slow strangulation, nothing nice at all.
Now if we compare when Luke goes to see Jabba, and he uses this on the gammorean guards, we see them basically just get "stunned" yes choking but "only" stunned, becuse he uses it the jedi way if you will, to disbale in the moment.
I was thinking maybe making a rules addendum reflecting these aspects better. becuse if we do see how this power is used, we tend to see star wars for black cyborgs only. |
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Dredwulf60
Line Captain
Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 911
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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There are certain things you wouldn't want to do with your bare hands that you would willingly do with a utensil or tool. To separate yourself from contamination.
I think the force is something similar. As a Jedi, you want to keep the force pure and clean, to insulate yourself from it to avoid your own contamination.
A guy who pushes a button that launches a surface-to-air missile to shoot down an incoming enemy plane vs a guy who disembowels someone with a dull knife.
In both cases another human being is likely going to die. Which one would potentially stain the person's spirit more? |
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I do view Force Lighting as an inherently Dark-Side-powered, so you could only learn it from a Sith Lord and must be on the Dark Side to use it. I remember one conversation years ago where someone tried to suggest that it shouldn't be Dark-only because you could use it for benign purposes, like "jump starting" your car with a dead battery, LOL. But seriously, that would just be making a mockery of Luke's suffering (and Palpatine's evil gloating). |
I'm on board with Force Lightning being dark side aligned because the description is specifically "You take your hate and anger and turn it into lightning".... it's not just "I make lightning", it's "I fry you with weaponized dark emotions".
OTOH, I could see a non-lightning Alter power that did jumpstart your car or something... it just would be more limited, either in power or in scope. (Like This One, which requires the correct natural conditions for lightning; you're not making lightning, you're encouraging natural lightning to happen)
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Volar the Healer
Jedi
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 664
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Yes, it should be a different skill. Moving tools and chess pieces is one thing, but killing someone is completely different. If for no other reason than summoning up that level of hate is difficult.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14212
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: |
Now if we compare when Luke goes to see Jabba, and he uses this on the gammorean guards, we see them basically just get "stunned" yes choking but "only" stunned, becuse he uses it the jedi way if you will, to disbale in the moment.
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Part of me wonders if luke actually just used Affect mind, to make them THINK they were choking.. SO as to NOT gain a DSP..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Part of me wonders if luke actually just used Affect mind, to make them THINK they were choking.. SO as to NOT gain a DSP.. |
This line of thought really irks me. It only exists because WEG adopted an overly narrow interpretation of Telekinetic Kill as a ham-fisted method of power-throttling PCs. If all we had was the films, no one would have any reason to suspect that Luke had done anything other than choke them out.
I think it's clear that TK Kill exists in the films, but that WEG got the rules for it wrong. The fact that the very first time we see it used on screen, the target survives what WEG wrote up as a normal-damage-only power should be the first clue that they got something wrong.
That being said, I'm okay with taking steps to make it a challenge for PCs to use TK Kill and similar powers, which is why I came up with my Willpower Rule. I'm also greatly inclined to re-write the Alter sections of all the relevant powers w/r/t how Damage is inflicted. As written, TK Kill rolls Alter against the target's Perception or Control. While Control makes sense (as one should quite naturally be able to use the Force to resist a Force-based attack), it has never made sense for Perception to be used to resist physical damage.
My current thought is to, instead, require the TK Kill user to roll against Moderate Difficulty (15), with however many points of success being applied as the Damage roll against the target.
Say, for instance, that a Sith with 6D Alter uses TK Kill against a Rebel with 2D Strength. Leaving asides MAPs for the moment (let's assume he brought up the Sense and Control components in the previous rounds), he rolls 6D and gets a 28, beating Moderate Difficulty by 13 points. The Rebel then rolls his 2D Strength against 13 to resist Damage and gets a 7; he's now Wounded.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Volar the Healer wrote: | | Yes, it should be a different skill. Moving tools and chess pieces is one thing, but killing someone is completely different. If for no other reason than summoning up that level of hate is difficult. |
Add to that the fact that there's an element of Farseeing mixed in that isn't covered by the Telekinesis power, in that the power use has to be able to perceive something not visible to normal human senses (inside of the target's body) in order to manipulate them to cause damage. It's also questionable whether or not the basic TK power's "line of sight" restriction would work through a hologram...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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