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Urban Spaceman
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 13 Sep 2010
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Location: UK
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 Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Good suggestions, Bren.
I guess what I need to consider is the Difficulty number of the Danger, using the type of danger and how well prepared (if at all) the trap/attack was, the effect of the it (is it lethal or non-lethal etc.) and use that to guide me as to how much of a 'sense' they get of the danger.
This should then lead me to how to inform the player of it (narratively speaking).
In truth, I've neglected this before and sometimes outright forgotten about it (although as I rolled the Danger Sense for the character, I can claim they rolled poorly - I know, I'm a terrible person!!)
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
Second, the player should get some actual benefit out of successfully using Danger Sense. I don't have any interest in playing a game of gotcha with Force using PCs. They are often weak enough in other areas that making the player guess what the danger might be in all cases just isn't very interesting and the odds are weighted against the player guessing the right action for the Jedi to take. Playing a Force user with Danger Sense has to have some benefit over not having a Force user with Danger Sense. And since its an RPG quite often there is some danger so just knowing "you think opening that door could be dangerous" doesn't tell the Jedi PC something that their non-Force sensitive, non Force using Bounty Hunter pal didn't already know. |
Don't they already get a benefit though, by being able to act BEFORE The one making the surprise attack GETS to take his surprise action?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | No-one tends to agree with my way of doing things, but I'll actually allow a sneak roll against a modified difficulty to overcome the danger sense power (since sneak is a perception skill).
In many cases, I'll allow a perception based skill to overcome an opposing sense roll, but the perception skill takes a penalty in doing so (but is usually still better than rolling just "perception"). |
This is in accordance with the RAW, but I have always taken issue with the RAW on this point. How is the ability to move quietly supposed to overcome the ability to sense events before they happen? |
Because sneak is a PERCEPTION skill, not a dexterity skill. Perception is about awareness, savvy, cunning, etc.
Sneak and "move silently" are not the same thing.
It all depends upon what kind of detection you are trying to defeat. Does your opponent know of your presence already and is searching for you? Timing is critical, deception is critical. Is you opponent a security camera with no audio detection? Noise/silence is irrelevant, but using shadows and obstacles becomes critical.
Trying to sneak past someone whose backis turned? Exposure is irrelevant, but silence is critical.
"Sneak" is knowing when to move and having an ide of how much noise you can or should make.
For example, no matter how quietly you move, if you are being observed, then....
On the other hand, in a crowded area, a sneak skill (being perception based) could reasonably entail several factors:
Noticeing/watching for all security cameras to be at certain points in their panning sequence AND being sure that no guards are focused in on your general location, AND noticeing someone who matches your general description and then moving through the crowd nonchalantly so as NOT to draw attention to yourself (whereas tiptoeing through a crowded Courescant boulevard would rais all kinds of red flags.
Consider also the scene in Enemy at the Gates where the sniper, pretending to be a dead guy, fires his rifle in conjuction with the explosions of mortars nearby thereby masking the sound and retaining his position. A similar strategy could be used to sneak around with, say, a jet pack in a thunder storm.
Sneaking is much more of an intellectual activity than a physical one. If Han had SEEN that twig and factored it into his route of travel, just imagine... but the twig snapped because he failed his SNEAK roll (a perception based skill, and, quite frankly, I feel that WotC's use of Dex for stealth skills is several orders of magnitute less representative of what stealth is than WEG's perception-based system).
Last edited by Naaman on Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Bren wrote: |
Second, the player should get some actual benefit out of successfully using Danger Sense. I don't have any interest in playing a game of gotcha with Force using PCs. They are often weak enough in other areas that making the player guess what the danger might be in all cases just isn't very interesting and the odds are weighted against the player guessing the right action for the Jedi to take. Playing a Force user with Danger Sense has to have some benefit over not having a Force user with Danger Sense. And since its an RPG quite often there is some danger so just knowing "you think opening that door could be dangerous" doesn't tell the Jedi PC something that their non-Force sensitive, non Force using Bounty Hunter pal didn't already know. |
Don't they already get a benefit though, by being able to act BEFORE The one making the surprise attack GETS to take his surprise action? |
I think Bren's main point was that the player SHOULD know with reasonable precision WHAT the threat is, not merely that there is a threat because if you just tell the player "your spidey sense is tingling" they dont have enough information to make a preemptive decision (am I being shot at? A rock about to fall on my head? Am I about to step on a trap door? About to get run over by a speeder?). |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | Because sneak is a PERCEPTION skill, not a dexterity skill. Perception is about awareness, savvy, cunning, etc.
Sneak and "move silently" are not the same thing. |
But Sneak IS about how to remain undetected by physical senses. No matter how aware, savy or cunning a character is, how does this give him the ability to conceal himself from a person who can sense things before they happen? It doesn't matter if you have the ability to sneak up behind me and stab me in the back without making a sound if I have the ability to sense the attack coming five seconds before it happen.
How does Sneak give someone the ability to hide from the flow of time?
Now, if it were some sort of mental discipline with Sneak and Willpower as prerequisites, I could see it. But not just plain old Sneak.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I think Bren's main point was that the player SHOULD know with reasonable precision WHAT the threat is, not merely that there is a threat because if you just tell the player "your spidey sense is tingling" they dont have enough information to make a preemptive decision (am I being shot at? A rock about to fall on my head? Am I about to step on a trap door? About to get run over by a speeder?). |
This. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | I think Bren's main point was that the player SHOULD know with reasonable precision WHAT the threat is, not merely that there is a threat because if you just tell the player "your spidey sense is tingling" they dont have enough information to make a preemptive decision (am I being shot at? A rock about to fall on my head? Am I about to step on a trap door? About to get run over by a speeder?). |
This. |
Seconded. In fact, sensing non-specific danger without enough information to act on it sounds more like how a GM should narrate it if the character failed his Sense roll by <5 points.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Naaman
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | Because sneak is a PERCEPTION skill, not a dexterity skill. Perception is about awareness, savvy, cunning, etc.
Sneak and "move silently" are not the same thing. |
But Sneak IS about how to remain undetected by physical senses. No matter how aware, savy or cunning a character is, how does this give him the ability to conceal himself from a person who can sense things before they happen? It doesn't matter if you have the ability to sneak up behind me and stab me in the back without making a sound if I have the ability to sense the attack coming five seconds before it happen.
How does Sneak give someone the ability to hide from the flow of time?
Now, if it were some sort of mental discipline with Sneak and Willpower as prerequisites, I could see it. But not just plain old Sneak. |
Sorry. I got off on a tangeant. My general rule of thumb is that when Force skills oppose the target's/opponent's perception, if there is a perception based skill that would have been rolled against a physical sense, I allow the skill roll instead (life detection, for example). With regard to danger sense, I agree. The attack would be detected, though its possible I could rule that the attack is foiled by whatever the Jedi decides to do, even if the source of the threat remains undetected due to a high sneak skill or whatever. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Bren wrote: |
Second, the player should get some actual benefit out of successfully using Danger Sense. I don't have any interest in playing a game of gotcha with Force using PCs. They are often weak enough in other areas that making the player guess what the danger might be in all cases just isn't very interesting and the odds are weighted against the player guessing the right action for the Jedi to take. Playing a Force user with Danger Sense has to have some benefit over not having a Force user with Danger Sense. And since its an RPG quite often there is some danger so just knowing "you think opening that door could be dangerous" doesn't tell the Jedi PC something that their non-Force sensitive, non Force using Bounty Hunter pal didn't already know. |
Don't they already get a benefit though, by being able to act BEFORE The one making the surprise attack GETS to take his surprise action? |
I think Bren's main point was that the player SHOULD know with reasonable precision WHAT the threat is, not merely that there is a threat because if you just tell the player "your spidey sense is tingling" they dont have enough information to make a preemptive decision (am I being shot at? A rock about to fall on my head? Am I about to step on a trap door? About to get run over by a speeder?). |
That's why the better they roll, the more info the DM should give..
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Last edited by garhkal on Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal, is there a missing follow up comment to the quotes? |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: |
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It seems he embedded his response into the quote inadvertantly.
"That's why the better they roll..." |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks Naaman, I missed that. I just assumed that "That's why the better they roll..." was something you had said. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Egads. I didn't notice that my comment got embedded. I will correct that immediately.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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But success should always deliver usable information of some type. If the character beats the Moderate Difficulty for Danger Sense, but only just, is it really a success if all they are told is that they sense danger, but no idea what or from where?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Young pawdawan:"Master if a tree falls in the forest since it doesn't have a specific intent to harm anything does anyone sense it?"
Jedi Master: "Seriously? I have 3 centuries of wisdom to share and you ask me that? Go stack some rocks with the Force now. (Sigh) and people wonder why we send these kids out alone into dangerous situations that they might be killed doing." |
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