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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: | | Pretty sure I didn't suggest it was canon. My entire campaign is based on scarcity and breakdown of trade routes and balkanization of Alliance and Empire cells. |
Which does make for an interesting alternate universe possibility. I'm just not seeing the logic of the Alliance, post-Endor, with a massive increase in territory and resources relative to their previous situation, suddenly not having access to the one material that allows them to build / fuel hyperdrives specifically for starfighters, especially if they were able to access it before, when they had minimal resources.
Now, if you had rewritten your SWU to exclude hyperdrive equipped starfighters in their entirety, I still wouldn't think that felt like Star Wars, but it would feel less arbitrary. At least then, starfighters could not be hyperspace capable because they never had been, and the simple explanation would be that technology either would not or could not advance that far.
Put simply, I guess I see your reasoning as somewhat flimsy. As I said previously, appreciating Star Wars and accepting it as a plausible reality requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief, by which I mean that, regardless of whatever preconceptions we bring to the table about the limitations of technology, George et al ask us to put those aside and "just go with it." For whatever reason, when it comes to starfighters having hyperdrives, you don't seem to be able to accept it, even though it is pretty clear that it is part of reality in the films, and has been made even more so in the EU. Speaking for myself, if I were playing in your campaign, I would find it highly suspect if you manipulated economics and scarcity across the entire galaxy simply to exclude a piece of canon technology that you didn't like for your own reasons (which seems to be the case from your previous post).
Now, that being said (and as I have said above), your universe = your call. However, here, in an open forum, we are all permitted to express our opinions, and my opinion is that deliberately stripping hyperdrives from starfighters (especially after they have already been equipped with them) takes away from the "feel" of Star Wars. YMMV.
| Quote: | | Not sure how having Alliance and Imperial starfighters work by the same rules breaks Star Wars for you, but that's not really what this thread is about so I'll keep quiet. |
Meh. Technically, this one went off-topic a few posts back already.
My primary issue with taking hyperdrives away from the Alliance removes a major asset (their ability to perform long range missions using starfighters), which thus shifts the balance on the playing field towards the Empire. Being able to hit and fade with starfighters who can simply jump to hyperspace to evade pursuing TIE fighters is a major advantage. And since the Empire already has so many advantages over the Alliance, it seems unfair to take away a technology that they use to such great effect.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:27 am Post subject: |
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For my SWU, I've had the idea that starfighters having their own hyperdrive was a development of the Clone Wars. In TPM, the fighters don't travel through hyperspace. In AotC, Obi-Wan uses that hyperring, and the Cross-Sections book shows how the N-1s dock with Senator Amidala's ship for hyperspace travel, and then disengage from it for instant fighter escort when it comes out of hyperspace at its destination. So in TPM and AotC, starfighters are not shown travelling through hyperspace on their own without the hyperring (or piggy-backing on another ship). But from RotS on, some starfighters have hyperdrives.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:45 am Post subject: |
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According to the Complete Cross-Sections, the N-1 was equipped with a hyperdrive, but the distance from Naboo to Coruscant exceeded their range, so they used the sockets on the yacht to extend their consumables, not because they required hyperspace transportation.
Historically, technology tends to advance by leaps and bounds during wars, so my theory is that, up to the Clone Wars, hyperdrive design had either stayed relatively static, or had advanced very slowly, with ships either not having hyperdrives, being dependent on hyperdrive rings, or being equipped with hyperdrives at great expense. Once the Clone Wars began (or even during the run-up to it), the pressure of war caused technology to advance at an accelerated rate.
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Barrataria
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Joined: 28 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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I lied, I kept reading. Thanks for sharing your thread.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Which does make for an interesting alternate universe possibility. |
Thanks, I like it a lot and am sorry it's probably going to be overwritten with ball droids and 60 year old Carrie Fisher with an alternate face (even if I'm glad there will be new SW movies).
| crmcneill wrote: | | I'm just not seeing the logic of the Alliance, post-Endor, with a massive increase in territory and resources relative to their previous situation, suddenly not having access to the one material that allows them to build / fuel hyperdrives specifically for starfighters, especially if they were able to access it before, when they had minimal resources. |
The Alliance of Independent Worlds in my SWU has almost nothing to do with the "New Republic". It's a bureaucratic, meritocratic tangle not unlike the Alliance in Firefly/Serenity. It's a confederacy, not a democracy, just like the Rebellion. And I have never seen the "logic" of millions and millions of Imperial soldiers and ships that can destroy whole planets instantly disappearing after Endor and worlds blithely joining up with the New Republic living happily ever after. Some of that NR era EU literature was very hand-wavy about the diplomacy (and quite possibly gunboat diplomacy) required to build any sort of republic, let alone one of millions of worlds, without merely repeating the mistakes of the Old Republic. Colonialism in the 50s didn't end with a tea party at the UN, there were decades of cold and hot wars all over the world.
I played MegaTraveller before I played Star Wars, and the "Hard Times" setting was its best book. The description in Hard Times is very detailed, but the idea is that interstellar war is expensive and difficult to sustain even for galactic empires. Warlords have no choice but to adopt a salted-earth strategy, raiding for resources, then denying competitors infrastructure. It's impossible to hold conquered territory, but pretty easy to destroy it, so the strategy self-perpetuates. Trade becomes more sporadic and travel and communication become perilous.
Eventually (in my SWU and for a short time in the MegaTraveller U) things settle around spheres of control, where Alliance pockets (4 major spheres) and Imperial warlord pockets (each with their own ideology and theory of what they're doing) only control what they can control with their fleets. There are also some neutral places (Bespin) that are valuable to all sides as freeports.
I am pretty satisfied with the logic, and so are my players. I am all about running an interesting game universe, not harmonizing the EU, and the NR is pretty boring to me. Which is why in the EU authors have to invent multiple ravenous alien races from the deeps of space to challenge it, or the Emperor's Nth clone arriving with yet another batch of stormtroopers from the depths of secret Imperial installations. I like quixotic Imperial warlords and venial Alliance bureaucrats trying to cobble together coalitions via diplomacy, threat and whatever else it takes with whatever resources they can get their hands on, and watching the players build stories therefrom. (Eventually in my SWU the Thrawn Trilogy would occur in some form; I'm hopeful I can keep some of this even after Ep. VII-IX).
| crmcneill wrote: | | Now, if you had rewritten your SWU to exclude hyperdrive equipped starfighters in their entirety, I still wouldn't think that felt like Star Wars, but it would feel less arbitrary. At least then, starfighters could not be hyperspace capable because they never had been, and the simple explanation would be that technology either would not or could not advance that far. |
I try to be careful about overwriting on-screen details in the OT, and you are putting words in my mouth. I did not write "starfighters could not be hyperspace capable". The Alliance has lost its unique ability to manufacture and maintain them. Maybe some bold adventurers can find a new source of the element (which I will now call crmcnium in your honor!) in Wildspace. Maybe they can find a lost fleet of bulk freighters full of the stuff. Maybe they'll find a starfighter engineer in a warlord's dungeon (or in an Alliance debtor's prison) who can jury-rig a new drive that runs on bantha pudu. Or maybe a PC will invent a new way. Maybe they find old blueprints for jump rings and figure out how to make them. Hey, now I have an adventure arc all about starfighters!
As whill noted, it's apparent from the films that starfighter hyperspace tech did not exist before Ep. IV (even if some DK book has a sentence about it somewhere; I'm sure there are plenty of WEG examples too). Actually, the filmmakers went out of their way to demonstrate starfighters weren't jump capable in the PT by including the jump rings. Now that I think about it, it's not a plot point in Ep. IV either- the Death Star comes to the Rebels on Yavin. And more importantly, the ONLY starfighters in the OT with hyperdrive belong to the Rebels. Developing that technology would explain a big part of the Rebels' military success. I'm not sure how the NR you posit that controls nearly everything and has vast resources has more at its disposal than the Empire, which effectively did control everything except whoever was building starfighters for the Rebels. Did the Empire lose their DK book when the Clone Wars ended?
| crmcneill wrote: | | Put simply, I guess I see your reasoning as somewhat flimsy. |
OK.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Speaking for myself, if I were playing in your campaign, I would find it highly suspect if you manipulated economics and scarcity across the entire galaxy simply to exclude a piece of canon technology that you didn't like for your own reasons (which seems to be the case from your previous post). |
I don't think you understood my previous post. I am manipulating economics and scarcity across the entire galaxy to provide interesting game situations. The scarcity is the fundamental subtext of the entire setting. Neither the Alliance nor the Imperial warlords (nor the Givin pirates or the Corporate Sector Authority or the Sorcerers of Tund or...) have what they need. They depend on smugglers, tramp freighters, smash-and-grab raids, and scoundrels. Hyperdrive-equipped starfighters irritate me slightly, and most happily the Alliance losing the ability to produce/operate them, which only they possessed anyway, fits perfectly into the overall game setting. Nobody's building Star Destroyers either, lots of them are repurposed into space stations, mobile pirate bases, etc. And, of course, as starfighter carriers.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Now, that being said (and as I have said above), your universe = your call. |
Thanks, it kind of sounded like you were calling me irrational.
| crmcneill wrote: | | However, here, in an open forum, we are all permitted to express our opinions, and my opinion is that deliberately stripping hyperdrives from starfighters (especially after they have already been equipped with them) takes away from the "feel" of Star Wars. |
This has actually proved to be a valuable thought exercise and has firmed up what was at most a very minor window-dressing to my campaign.
I don't really have any players that want to run a Rogue Squadron type campaign, and if they did it would just be based on a carrier. I f**ing loved Wing Commander. And Baa Baa Black Sheep, where getting drop tanks to extend their range was a big plot point in more than one episode. It's good to know that someone would be so offended by the idea of Rebel starfighters becoming carrier-based, but no one I've played with has ever blinked at it. Our mileage does, in fact, vary.
| crmcneill wrote: | | My primary issue with taking hyperdrives away from the Alliance removes a major asset (their ability to perform long range missions using starfighters), which thus shifts the balance on the playing field towards the Empire. |
1. What Empire? I thought it died at the end of Ep. VI. So did my Imperial warlords (although one believes the Emperor lives, one is continuing to carry out his last orders, others swear allegiance to the role of Emperor until another assumes the throne...)
2. Yes, the Alliance of Independent Worlds faces many strategic challenges from scarcity, challenges which can often only be met by small bands of brave adventurers performing bold deeds.
3. There are not two sides in this campaign. It's a bouncy-house, not a teeter-totter. Bouncy-houses are a lot more fun.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Being able to hit and fade with starfighters who can simply jump to hyperspace to evade pursuing TIE fighters is a major advantage. And since the Empire already has so many advantages over the Alliance, it seems unfair to take away a technology that they use to such great effect. |
1. Imperial warlords don't have "so many advantages", they have aging fleets that they hold together with whatever they can get their hands on (which of course includes Incom hyperdrive starfighters, but that's all played out in the decade before our campaign is set). Once in a while one might come across a ghost fleet or lost depot or something, but that will be rare (and will pretty quickly get attacked from multiple sides. That's a valuable find and would be a great backdrop for a string of adventures).
2. Looks like Alliance commanders are going to have to come up with some new strategy. No more lazy-@$$ "launch a starfighter strike and look for the two-meter port". Maybe some brash adventurers can invent one!
3. I'm not sure what "unfair" is supposed to mean. To Admiral Ackbar? To Queen Leia of New Alderaan? To Mon Mothma, chief bureaucrat of the Alliance of Independent Worlds? I'm not running a sandtray tactical starfleet simulation, so I really don't understand what "fairness" is there to analyze.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: | | Thanks, I like it a lot and am sorry it's probably going to be overwritten with ball droids and 60 year old Carrie Fisher with an alternate face (even if I'm glad there will be new SW movies). |
I think there are a lot of us who feel the same way about our own little pocket SWUs.
| Quote: | | The Alliance of Independent Worlds in my SWU has almost nothing to do with the "New Republic". It's a bureaucratic, meritocratic tangle not unlike the Alliance in Firefly/Serenity. It's a confederacy, not a democracy, just like the Rebellion. |
When you compare the Rebel Alliance with the Alliance in Serenity/Firefly, I automatically think bad guys. Has the Alliance in your universe devolved that quickly?
Thanks for the link; it clarifies a lot. Basically, if the EU's version of what happened after Endor is a best-case scenario, your universe takes place in the worst-case scenario. I still need to hear more details about how and why starfighters can't use their hyperdrives any more, but the idea of everyone getting the shaft in a Star-Wars-meets-The-Great-Depression campaign makes a bit more sense.
| Quote: | | And I have never seen the "logic" of millions and millions of Imperial soldiers and ships that can destroy whole planets instantly disappearing after Endor and worlds blithely joining up with the New Republic living happily ever after. |
Did they? That was never the impression that I got. The Emperor may have died at Endor, and taken a lot of ships with him, but there was still plenty left. The problem was that, with the Emperor gone, the Empire lost the focus and unity that had sustained it against the Alliance up to that point. My take from various EU sources was that upper hierarchy of the Empire under Palpatine most closely resembled a pack of wild dogs, with Palpatine maintaining his position as the Alpha by playing all of the others against eachother, using his shifting favors to undercut those who got too strong. With his death at Endor, what had been a relatively monolithic edifice of strength turned inward on itself, first fighting to see who would replace Palpatine at the top, then later, fighting just to hold on to what they had. With their focus inward instead of outward, the Alliance could easily have made significant gains in the Outer Rim simply because there was no one with the political will and resources to resist them, because the Empire had, as you put it, balkanized, while the Alliance remained relatively intact. And since the Empire had fractured so badly, systems on the fringes of the Empire, for a variety of reasons, were able to openly declare support for and join the Alliance.
Now, I'm guessing from what you describe that the Alliance fractured internally as well, and was unable to maintain the cohesion needed to drive into the Core and supplant the Empire?
| Quote: | | Some of that NR era EU literature was very hand-wavy about the diplomacy (and quite possibly gunboat diplomacy) required to build any sort of republic, let alone one of millions of worlds, without merely repeating the mistakes of the Old Republic. Colonialism in the 50s didn't end with a tea party at the UN, there were decades of cold and hot wars all over the world. |
I tend to agree; it did all seem to come together rather well, but that is not to say that everything happened perfectly. A lot of things are alluded to in various sources that never made it to print about unnamed troubles and such. As the saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
| Quote: | | I try to be careful about overwriting on-screen details in the OT, and you are putting words in my mouth. I did not write "starfighters could not be hyperspace capable". The Alliance has lost its unique ability to manufacture and maintain them. |
Not quite sure what you mean here by unique ability, since mass produced, hyperspace capable starfighters existed as far as back as Ep. I (the fact that we never see the starfighters in E1 use their hyperdrives is not conclusive proof that they don't have them).
| Quote: | | Maybe some bold adventurers can find a new source of the element (which I will now call crmcnium in your honor!) in Wildspace. |
I'm honored.
| Quote: | | As whill noted, it's apparent from the films that starfighter hyperspace tech did not exist before Ep. IV (even if some DK book has a sentence about it somewhere; I'm sure there are plenty of WEG examples too). Actually, the filmmakers went out of their way to demonstrate starfighters weren't jump capable in the PT by including the jump rings. |
As I mentioned above, the only thing that is apparent from the films is that we don't see hyperdrive starfighter tech in action in EI and EIV. This is not conclusive proof that said technology does not exist. The use of hyperdrive rings is only proof that some starfighters were incapable of hyperspace flight on their own. If you will excuse the reducto ad absurdum, we also do not see any restrooms in Episode 1 (nor, indeed, in any of the other five films), yet this is not conclusive proof that restrooms do not exist in the SWU.
As far as the canon is concerned, any material in the Cross-Section books that does not contradict the films or the Clone Wars TV series is considered canon (albeit at a lesser level than the films themselves). Since the Cross-Section books state that Naboo N-1 starfighters are equipped with hyperdrives (even if it is only a single sentence), and no higher-level canon sources contradict that (even if we don't see those hyperdrives used in the films), then starfighters having internal hyperdrives as of E1 is canon.
| Quote: | | Now that I think about it, it's not a plot point in Ep. IV either- the Death Star comes to the Rebels on Yavin. And more importantly, the ONLY starfighters in the OT with hyperdrive belong to the Rebels. Developing that technology would explain a big part of the Rebels' military success. I'm not sure how the NR you posit that controls nearly everything and has vast resources has more at its disposal than the Empire, which effectively did control everything except whoever was building starfighters for the Rebels. Did the Empire lose their DK book when the Clone Wars ended? |
Available official material is very clear that starfighters could be equipped with internal hyperdrives as of the Clone Wars. The reason the Empire did not field hyperdrive-equipped fighters was that, from a military doctrine stand-point, they didn't want or need them. Their starfighters were intended to operate in support of capital ships, which would also provide them with transport. The Alliance, on the other hand, chose a military doctrine that did make use of hyperdrive equipped starfighters. The Alliance did not develop the technology to put a hyperdrive in a starfighter; it already existed. The Rebels had it because they chose to make use of it, whereas the Empire arrogantly assumed it didn't need it, and was then forced to play catch-up with later TIE models, such as the Avenger and Defender.
Also, you are mistaken when you say I posit the existence of a Republic that controls everything and has vastly more resources. My point is that, even during the Alliance, before Endor, when the Rebels were operating on a shoe-string and everything was in short supply, they still had hyperspace capable starfighters. After Endor, when the Empire fractured into warlords and such, the Alliance gained even more territory, including many planets that openly threw in their lot with the Alliance, along with all of the resources that those planets could provide. My point is that, even though they were operating on limited resources, they still considered hyperdrive equipped starfighters sufficiently important to build their own advanced fighters (X, A and B-Wings), all of which were equipped with hyperdrives. After Endor, with the Alliance experiencing a major influx of resources, it makes no sense to say, "well, you've got all these new supply sources, but, oh, by the way, you no longer have access to that one source of supply that let you build hyperdrives just for starfighters."
| Quote: | | I don't think you understood my previous post. I am manipulating economics and scarcity across the entire galaxy to provide interesting game situations. The scarcity is the fundamental subtext of the entire setting. |
I understood it well enough. The problem with this particular theory is that one of the reasons the Alliance chose to focus on hyperspace capable starfighters was because of their economy compared to big capital ships. Indeed, a HS-capable starfighter would be a perfect fit for the raiding strategy you mentioned (which is one of the reasons the Alliance adopted it), since it can project power (especially as part of a space denial strategy) much more economically than even the smallest capital ships.
A final point on scarcity: the pre-Endor Alliance was already used to operating on scant resources. They were already using a strategy of raiding and space denial, as opposed to space superiority. And they still chose to devote their resources to building hyperspace-capable starfighters.
| Quote: | | It's good to know that someone would be so offended by the idea of Rebel starfighters becoming carrier-based, but no one I've played with has ever blinked at it. Our mileage does, in fact, vary. |
Not so much "offended" as "having difficulty wrapping my head around your justification for it." I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, because a dystopian alternate future for Star Wars really is an intriguing concept, but I'm still getting hung up on your logic. You freely admit that, for whatever reason, hyperdrive equipped starfighters "irritate" you, even though their existence is an established part of the canon, and the ways in which you are justifying their removal isn't working for me.
I must admit to a degree of irritation myself. My thinking on the matter is entirely based on what universe I'm playing in. In the SWU, hyperdrive starfighters are perfectly acceptable, because the films have clearly established that they exist. In another universe, say, Babylon 5, for example, starfighters can not travel through hyperspace without external transport or assistance. Or in the Honor Harrington universe, for example, where the closest thing they have to a starfighter weighs 30,000 tons and has a crew of 10, and it still can't jump to hyperspace. Put simply, whether or not hyperdrives on starfighters are acceptable to me is based on entirely on what the rules are for the universe I happen to be playing in at that time, and I leave my baggage from one universe at the door when I move over to a different universe. The fact that you choose not to do that on this particular matter irritated me sufficiently that I couldn't just let it pass without comment. But in the end, it doesn't really matter.
If nothing else, I'm glad this discussion enabled you to firm up the deep background of your own campaign, even if I disagree with it. We're all here to learn more about the game and make it better with our input, but in the end, it will always be your universe = your call.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Barrataria
Commander
Joined: 28 Dec 2005
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Location: Republic of California
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | When you compare the Rebel Alliance with the Alliance in Serenity/Firefly, I automatically think bad guys. Has the Alliance in your universe devolved that quickly? |
Now I can play the canon card. Joss Whedon has been very clear about that Alliance. It's not "bad" per se. It's really big, and really impersonal, and really bureaucratic. And of course within that morass are the "two by two, hands of blue" guys, real bad guys. I see the Alliance of Independent Worlds as the first, basically without the second. And of course, the book that inspired Firefly was about Confederate soldiers....
But I also am thinking of post-WWII events in the third world, where in some cases the Japanese ended up still controlling territory in the immediate aftermath of the war. Just as some Imperials defected to the Rebellion, I'm quite sure quite a few of those that didn't mind sticking wtih the Empire would pledge easy allegiance to the Alliance so they could keep their planet/wealth/position. It's not so much as the Alliance "devolving" that quickly, it's just not ready to administer a galaxy when the Emperor dies, and eggs have to be broken to stretch the Alliance over its spheres of control.
| crmcneill wrote: | | I still need to hear more details about how and why starfighters can't use their hyperdrives any more |
Alliance starfighters' hyperdrives are fueled with a hyper-dense fuel that can only be made with crmcnium as a reactive agent. That element was discovered by Quarren miners on Mon Calamari right around the Battle of Yavin. As you say, the Rebellion went to town with it and relied on masses of starfighters, a very effective strategy. Unfortunately, the crmcnium mines played out. No more hyperdrive fuel. Too bad, so sad.
| crmcneill wrote: | | but the idea of everyone getting the shaft in a Star-Wars-meets-The-Great-Depression campaign makes a bit more sense. |
Ha, it's not QUITE that bad, kind of 25% Hard Times. My general idea is that at the core of the Alliance/Imperial spheres, things look more or less like they looked about the time of ESB. That way, games needing Imperial bad guys in control can happen in the Imperial spheres, and more freewheeling smuggler/whatever campaigns can happen in the Alliance spheres. Even a Star Trekky sort of benign exploration campaign, with the Alliance cruisers floating in the distance. Or smugglers can try to evade those Alliance cruisers.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Now, I'm guessing from what you describe that the Alliance fractured internally as well, and was unable to maintain the cohesion needed to drive into the Core and supplant the Empire? |
Kind of, I figure the Bothan drama from the EU took them on their own path, and the Mon Cal (perhaps a side-effect of the crmcnium debacle) take their ships and go home too. The four Alliance spheres get along well enough, it's just that the lines of communication are very sketchy. And there's just a lot of graft, pettiness, and so forth. Mayor Carcetti and Major Rawls were good guys, right?
| crmcneill wrote: | | As the saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. [...](the fact that we never see the starfighters in E1 use their hyperdrives is not conclusive proof that they don't have them). |
Yeah, I think it was St. Billy of Preston that said "nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin', you gotta have somethin'". I guess the Empire also has fire breathing dragons and fembots, they just didn't make it into a film.
To be less snide, I start from the OT and work out from there. I don't totally ignore the PT but I pick and choose among its stuff. I like the fluff, but the "crunch" of the plot is where I tend to rewrite them. Then it's OT novelizations and Marvel comics, then EU stuff I like. I just do not have whill's appetite and stamina for harmonizing every detail of the EU. If I ran a D&D campaign in the Forgotten Realms, I'd ignore everything after the grey 1E box set except what I like.
| crmcneill wrote: | | If you will excuse the reducto ad absurdum, we also do not see any restrooms in Episode 1 (nor, indeed, in any of the other five films), yet this is not conclusive proof that restrooms do not exist in the SWU. |
Sorry, I don't think it works that way. It's one thing to say "X was in the film, therefore you have to explain it", it's quite another to say "gee, we didn't see it so it must be in there somewhere"! Why would Naboo even HAVE hyperdrive capable fighters? They barely have an army and claim repeatedly that they are peaceniks.
| crmcneill wrote: | | As far as the canon is concerned, any material in the Cross-Section books that does not contradict the films or the Clone Wars TV series is considered canon (albeit at a lesser level than the films themselves). |
Not by me.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Available official material is very clear that starfighters could be equipped with internal hyperdrives as of the Clone Wars. |
So far, it's a footnote in a DK book. I'm not arguing, and never have, that you are wrong on that point. I am as interested in DK book information as I am in any other things that aren't in the movies (including things that are not shown in the movies).
| crmcneill wrote: | | The Alliance did not develop the technology to put a hyperdrive in a starfighter; it already existed. |
Presumably, because it was not shown in Ep. IV. Right?
| crmcneill wrote: | | After Endor, with the Alliance experiencing a major influx of resources, it makes no sense to say, "well, you've got all these new supply sources |
As I've posted twice now, it's nice for them to have more resources, but they don't have the one that makes hyperdrive go-go juice for starfighters. And even if they did, they'd have to get it from the Mon Cal. And even if they did, they'd have to get it from one Alliance cell across Givin space and at least one Imperial warlord to supply Sullust and Endor. Saudi Arabia has a billion trillion gallons of oil, but if there are enough Somali pirates in the Red Sea it's not going to do them much good.
| crmcneill wrote: | | A final point on scarcity: the pre-Endor Alliance was already used to operating on scant resources. |
You're right, and that's one more thing that I think ends up snarled in bureaucracy. It's like a startup company that grows too fast.
| crmcneill wrote: | | even though their existence is an established part of the canon, and the ways in which you are justifying their removal isn't working for me. |
Dude, they still exist. I have never in any of these posts said they don't exist. The Alliance still has their zillions of starfighters (which, you know, are getting a little tattered just like the Imperial ships) They have no hyperdrive fuel. They even still work for hit-and-run, they just have to be on a carrier when they enter and leave the system.
| crmcneill wrote: | | I leave my baggage from one universe at the door when I move over to a different universe. |
I don't. Some of those fictional universes are very carefully designed, and those design ideas can be useful in building a game setting. Which is way, way more important to me than what some guy put in a DK book or what wasn't on screen in the prequels.
| crmcneill wrote: | | your universe = your call. |
I dunno, I'm seeing a lot of "reducto ad absurdium" and "how can you explain" in these posts. Anyway, as I said it's interesting to see what people think instantly reduces SW to nothingness. There was a good thread a while back about that.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: | | It's not so much as the Alliance "devolving" that quickly, it's just not ready to administer a galaxy when the Emperor dies, and eggs have to be broken to stretch the Alliance over its spheres of control. |
I can see that. What sort of time scale are you working on here? How long after Endor is this taking place?
EDIT: Never mind; found your timeline.
| crmcneill wrote: | | No more hyperdrive fuel. Too bad, so sad. |
Gotcha. Still doesn't work for me, but oh well.
| Quote: | | I figure the Bothan drama from the EU took them on their own path, and the Mon Cal (perhaps a side-effect of the crmcnium debacle) take their ships and go home too. The four Alliance spheres get along well enough, it's just that the lines of communication are very sketchy. And there's just a lot of graft, pettiness, and so forth. |
That makes sense. Even in the EU, Bothans were kinda dicks, so having the Alliance split over disagreements with them is certainly plausible.
| Quote: | | It's one thing to say "X was in the film, therefore you have to explain it", it's quite another to say "gee, we didn't see it so it must be in there somewhere"! Why would Naboo even HAVE hyperdrive capable fighters? They barely have an army and claim repeatedly that they are peaceniks. |
The difference is that a lesser canon source has stated that the N-1's have hyperdrives, and since nothing that is seen in the films contradicts that, it is presumed to be correct. It's a far cry from saying "just because we didn't see a teleporter on the Queen's yacht doesn't mean that it isn't actually there", because the statement about the N-1's having hyperdrives come from a reputable canon source.
As to why they need them? Who knows? Just because they are peaceful doesn't mean they are idiots who assume that they won't be attacked just because they are "peaceful". The events of E1 certainly bear that out.
| Quote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | The Alliance did not develop the technology to put a hyperdrive in a starfighter; it already existed. |
Presumably, because it was not shown in Ep. IV. Right? |
Again, just because it wasn't used in E4 does not mean it doesn't exist, especially now that later canon sources have firmly established the fact as part of the EU. If nothing else, Obi-wan's comment about TIEs being a "short range fighter" reasonably imply that there are "long range fighters" of some kind out there. There is also Luke's automatic assumption that the TIE had followed them through hyperspace from Tattooine. On top of that, you also have implied (ESB) and actual (ROTJ) hyperdrive use by starfighters in the original trilogy.
| Quote: | | As I've posted twice now, it's nice for them to have more resources, but they don't have the one that makes hyperdrive go-go juice for starfighters. |
No evidence in the canon of special hyperdrive go-go juice for starfighters, but that's your universe, not mine. I prefer, if not true canon, to atleast have as many links back to in-universe fact as I can, and there is no in-universe evidence for specially different hyperdrives or fuel for starfighters. The closest it gets is some vague mention of some hyperdrives utilizing anti-matter for fuel (as opposed to whatever they normally use: hypermatter, or something), but there are no specifics given.
That might be a route for you to take, actually...
| Quote: | | Dude, they still exist. I have never in any of these posts said they don't exist. The Alliance still has their zillions of starfighters (which, you know, are getting a little tattered just like the Imperial ships) They have no hyperdrive fuel. They even still work for hit-and-run, they just have to be on a carrier when they enter and leave the system. |
I should've been clearer. I meant that you have removed their use (the hyperdrives), not the drives or the starfighters themselves. And I said, your non-canonical explanation for how this came about doesn't work for me. But again, oh well.
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Barrataria
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | As to why they need them? Who knows? Just because they are peaceful doesn't mean they are idiots who assume that they won't be attacked just because they are "peaceful". The events of E1 certainly bear that out. |
From a diplomatic standpoint, it's difficult for a nation to claim to be pacifists when they wield weapons that are ONLY useful to project killing power at a great distance. I didn't say that they were idiots, but now that you mention it, they did a pretty poor job of military planning if they had hyperdrive-capable starfighters and no meaningful in-system defense or infantry heavier than jeeps and cartoon rabbits with electric bowling balls.
| crmcneill wrote: | | If nothing else, Obi-wan's comment about TIEs being a "short range fighter" reasonably imply that there are "long range fighters" of some kind out there. There is also Luke's automatic assumption that the TIE had followed them through hyperspace from Tattooine. |
I think this is more finding things not in the film, right? Saying "there's a short-range fighter" can also mean "that isn't a bomber". And since Luke had never left Tatooine before, I'm not sure what he knows about it. I am not saying X-wings do not exist in my universe.
| crmcneill wrote: | | On top of that, you also have implied (ESB) and actual (ROTJ) hyperdrive use by starfighters in the original trilogy. |
Now I don't know what you are trying to demonstrate here, or with whom you are arguing. Hyperdrive starfighters aren't "implied" in ESB, Luke flies one all over the galaxy.
| crmcneill wrote: | | The closest it gets is some vague mention of some hyperdrives utilizing anti-matter for fuel (as opposed to whatever they normally use: hypermatter, or something), but there are no specifics given. |
Right.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I actually like your name for the unobtanium: pleurium. It flows off the tongue and has a nice sci-fi sound to it. You might even infuse a little Trek homage and call it dipleurium (sorta like dilithium).
A while back, I started using the phrases "starfighter" and "spacefighter" in the SWU to distinguish between hyperspace capable and non-hyperspace capable starfighters. In the interests of clarity and simplicity (i.e. not having to type out "hyperspace capable starfighter" every other sentence), from this point on, I will revert to that standard. Starfighter = Hyperspace Capable, Spacefighter = Non-Hyperspace Capable.
I'm still not sold on your theory, but if you're interested in tying it back into the canon, here's a premise:
-The hyperdrives installed in modern starfighters, while similar to standard hyperdrives, are sufficiently miniaturized that their operation requires a more potent source of power: antimatter.
-Generating anti-matter is an energy intensive process that is only effective on a few heavy metals, the most potent of which by far is called Pleurium (or Dipleurium, if you like).
-Pleurium, in turn, is extremely rare, found only on a few planets, and in small quantities. Fortunately, starfighters require only minute amounts to power their hyperdrives.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:33 am Post subject: |
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I'm reading Barrataria as sharing something about his SWU that is somewhat related to the thread topic (hyperspace travel). I'm not reading him as presenting an interpretation of canon or presenting an argument for the way it should work in anyone else's game. I don't see Barrataria as needing to convince anyone.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Historically, technology tends to advance by leaps and bounds during wars, so my theory is that, up to the Clone Wars, hyperdrive design had either stayed relatively static, or had advanced very slowly, with ships either not having hyperdrives, being dependent on hyperdrive rings, or being equipped with hyperdrives at great expense. Once the Clone Wars began (or even during the run-up to it), the pressure of war caused technology to advance at an accelerated rate. |
There would have to have been be a lot of stasis in the SW galaxy. By the time of the films, hyperdrives have existed for over 1000 generations. Since so much doesn't change, I like to see some things advance in the time frame of the films. It makes the films seem more realistic to me, if I don't think too much about time periods far from the films. Starfighters not having hyperdrives until the Clone Wars is one of those things for me. (Technically without hyperdrives, they would be "spacefighers" not starfighters).
| crmcneill wrote: | | According to the Complete Cross-Sections, the N-1 was equipped with a hyperdrive, but the distance from Naboo to Coruscant exceeded their range, so they used the sockets on the yacht to extend their consumables, not because they required hyperspace transportation. |
I like it better that N-1s didn't have hyperdrives at all, so in my SWU they didn't. The N-1s were not shown travelling through hyperspace in the films, and chronologically no starfighters were shown having hyperspace capabilities without a hyperring until RotS. The films are a staple of my canon diet but the EU is only à la carte menu. 8)
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: | | From a diplomatic standpoint, it's difficult for a nation to claim to be pacifists when they wield weapons that are ONLY useful to project killing power at a great distance. |
How is that their only use? Hyperdrives also supplement in-system patrols (micro-jump to and from outer orbit planets) and provide quick reaction times for the same. Hyperdrives also allow starfighters to escort convoys of freighters or other unarmed craft without requiring transportation, as well as allowing them to be under power and ready to fight should there be an attack or other emergency. A Hyperdrive adds versatility to a multi-role package; it does not restrict that package to a single kind of mission.
| Quote: | | I didn't say that they were idiots, but now that you mention it, they did a pretty poor job of military planning if they had hyperdrive-capable starfighters and no meaningful in-system defense or infantry heavier than jeeps and cartoon rabbits with electric bowling balls. |
It may also be that their forces were intended as more of a police and security force than an actual army.
| Quote: | | I think this is more finding things not in the film, right? Saying "there's a short-range fighter" can also mean "that isn't a bomber". |
What's a bomber? They are never mentioned in any of the films, so they couldn't possibly exist, right? I mean, they could exist, but that would require postulating that things exist in the SWU that don't show up in the films. Are we allowed to do that? [/snark]
| Quote: | | And since Luke had never left Tatooine before, I'm not sure what he knows about it. I am not saying X-wings do not exist in my universe. |
I'm willing to bet that a natural pilot who dreams of going to the Imperial Academy has probably done some studying on the matter.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Hyperdrive starfighters aren't "implied" in ESB, Luke flies one all over the galaxy. |
By implied, I meant that we don't actually see Luke's fighter (or any of the other X-Wings) jump to hyperspace, even though it is clear from the films that they do.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I'm reading Barrataria as sharing something about his SWU that is somewhat related to the thread topic (hyperspace travel). I'm not reading him as presenting an interpretation of canon or presenting an argument for the way it should work in anyone else's game. I don't see Barrataria as needing to convince anyone. |
Do you mind? I'm trying to have an argument here. 
And I am at least offering ideas for him to tie his concept back into the canon, even if I don't agree with his concept. You mods should be proud of how mature I've become. 
| Quote: | | There would have to have been be a lot of stasis in the SW galaxy. By the time of the films, hyperdrives have existed for over 1000 generations. Since so much doesn't change, I like to see some things advance in the time frame of the films. It makes the films seem more realistic to me, if I don't think too much about time periods far from the films. Starfighters not having hyperdrives until the Clone Wars is one of those things for me. |
My nascent theory was that, as of E1, there were three possibilities:1). Spacefighters (no hyperdrive)
2). Spacefighters with R2 units and the ability to dock with hyperdrive rings.
3). Starfighters, with drives so inefficient that they sucked down the ship's consumables at 5x the normal rate (a ship with 1 week's consumables would only have a 1 day radius in hyperspace. This factors in the Cross-Section mention of the N-1 only having a range of 1,000 LY) The Clone Wars then forced the development of miniaturized hyperdrives for starfighters that increased efficiency, until, by the end, they consumed fuel / power at normal rates.
| Quote: | | (Technically without hyperdrives, they would be "spacefighers" not starfighters). |
Exactly.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Barrataria
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Hyperdrives also allow starfighters to escort convoys of freighters or other unarmed craft without requiring transportation, as well as allowing them to be under power and ready to fight should there be an attack or other emergency. |
Which, if you don't modify the EpI plot, they also did pretty poorly. Look, a droid fleet! If only there were a 9 year old to fly for us! Maybe the Endor battalion of stormtroopers was grown from Naboo Security Force genetic material.
| crmcneill wrote: | | What's a bomber? They are never mentioned in any of the films, so they couldn't possibly exist, right? I mean, they could exist, but that would require postulating that things exist in the SWU that don't show up in the films. Are we allowed to do that? [/snark] |
| crmcneill wrote: | | By implied, I meant that we don't actually see Luke's fighter (or any of the other X-Wings) jump to hyperspace, even though it is clear from the films that they do. |
OK, now we're down to sophistry. You'd better argue with Whill for a while.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: | |
Are you sure? I mean, sources from outside the film called it a TIE Bomber, but no one in the films ever actually said the words "TIE Bomber." So, it could be anything. Unless, of course, we use the EU to fill in things that the films don't cover.
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Whill
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