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garhkal
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 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:30 am Post subject: |
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I could see separating conning out from lie detection, and have detecting lies being its own skill. Similar to as mentioned, the Willpower-intimidation base.
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Raven Redstar
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | My only problem with Con: Lie Detection is that the Con score is the minimum Lie Detection ability, so Lie Detection can be even greater than the ability to Con. I'm not saying it can't be greater, but since I am hovering between base attribute and Con skill, Lie Detection being a specialty of Con puts it in the other direction of Con.
If you're going to have Lie Detection, it would make more sense to me to have it be a completely separate Perception skill from Con. That way in any character you could have any combination: both being base Perception, both being higher than base Perception but equal to each other, or either being higher than the other. The down side to that is, you lose the relationship between the two abilities that RAW has (being better at Conning makes you better at detecting it), other than them being based on the same attribute.
In my game, Con has already been renamed as Deception, and if I was going to have the ability to detect lies be a separate Perception skill, then I would probably go the d20 route and generalize it to Sense Motive which includes lie detection. And I guess I could still relate lying to to lie detection by allowing players to roll Sense Motive or Deception (or half the difference between Deception and Perception) to detect lying.
But I have so many Perception skills already! |
On those characters that have the Con: Lie Detection, they don't have a con skill, so their con skill is defaulted to their perception attribute.
I could see having a sense motive skill, it just feels off for me for some reason to split them. I supposed because in my house rules I've combined more skills than I've created, so the idea of creating a new skill for my current games and having my player characters split dice or do whatever seems kind of taxing. However, I might in the future for my NPCs at least, give them a standard skill akin to Sense Motive.
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jmanski
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Someone started talking about modifiers and that has me thinking. I like the idea of using modifiers and a flat Perception roll.
Then there's the case to be made for using Con but perhaps penalizing the one detecting the lie since the skill isn't exactly made for that.
Lots of ways to skin this cat.
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Whill
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | On those characters that have the Con: Lie Detection, they don't have a con skill, so their con skill is defaulted to their perception attribute. |
Right, but I was referring to the fact that Con cannot be greater than the Lie Detection ability since it us still included in the base Con skill (and base attribute). In Raw, the ability to detect lies is always equal to your ability to lie. In your game, lie detection is always equal to or greater than Con (which of course is equal to or greater than Perception). There is nothing wrong with the way you're doing it if that works for your game, and I appreciate you sharing that option here (I hadn't even thought of that). I was just pointing it out. My dilemma was I see there being many people whose ability to detect lies is LESS than their ability to lie. Having them be separate Perception skills allows for all possible combinations.
| Quote: | | I could see having a sense motive skill, it just feels off for me for some reason to split them. I supposed because in my house rules I've combined more skills than I've created, so the idea of creating a new skill for my current games and having my player characters split dice or do whatever seems kind of taxing. However, I might in the future for my NPCs at least, give them a standard skill akin to Sense Motive. |
I feel ya. I've likewise simplified things by combining (or recombining) skills so my preference is not to add any. But I'm thinking that a Sense Motive skill may have more uses than just detecting lies.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | Someone started talking about modifiers and that has me thinking. I like the idea of using modifiers and a flat Perception roll.
Then there's the case to be made for using Con but perhaps penalizing the one detecting the lie since the skill isn't exactly made for that.
Lots of ways to skin this cat. |
True. Appropriate application of modifiers is another way to go.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | R&E p. 55 says "The difficulty of the con depends on who is being conned" before listing the static difficulty guidelines followed by the static modifiers. So it seems clear that RAW intends that NPCs do not resist PC con attempts by opposed rolls.
But I can see a GM doing opposed rolls for NPCs to resist PC con attempts, once the GM determines if it will be at full Con, base Perception or halfway in between. But I would think it should be always one way or the other for NPCs (opposed rolls or static difficulties) to be consistent. |
RAW does say that (about the static modifiers), but it also (a) says "you'll often want to use roleplaying to resolve these situations" (something most of us are probably doing anyway, and (b) "Characters can actively resist a con attempt by rolling their con or Perception dice against the opponent's con total." (emphasis mine, though the RAW text does have it in italics and not because it's listing a skill).
So I think the RAW very much encourages one to use opposing rolls (rather than static numbers), for cases where it makes sense to do so.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, and this has never really been a big issue in my game because all con attempts by PCs and NPCs get roleplayed out, but the game mechanics are there to help determine the outcome as needed, which is why it is a question.
I admit that there have even been occasions where the player's con was so ingenious that that I didn't even bother rolling and just roleplayed the NPC falling for it, and rewarded the PC a CP for it. But those cases are rare so the rules have to be determined and in place for me.
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Kytross
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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I suggest watching the TV show Lie to Me. It deals with micro-expressions and technology that shows stress. It takes alot of different skills to tell when someone is lying.
I suggest an advanced skill called Lie Detection. It would require 5D in Con to take and advancing it would cost double. You could specialize in individual species. |
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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An excellent idea!
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: | I suggest watching the TV show Lie to Me. It deals with micro-expressions and technology that shows stress. It takes alot of different skills to tell when someone is lying.
I suggest an advanced skill called Lie Detection. It would require 5D in Con to take and advancing it would cost double. You could specialize in individual species. |
That is an interesting idea. So if Lie Detection is an advanced skill, then characters without the advanced skill would not be able to use the opposed rolls option of RAW, correct?
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Kytross
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:38 am Post subject: |
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I'd let them make an opposed roll against perception, we can all get a feeling when someone is lying and sometimes we're right.
Someone with the advanced skill is going to be better at it. 1D in the skill will let you know when something is off, but 4D and you should be able to sift through someone's lies like a filter, assuming they roll well. |
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RyanDarkstar
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Location: Chambersburg, PA, USA, Earth
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure if this helps, but the Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook includes a Perception skill, body language, in the description for Human: Lorrdian.
| Quote: | | Traditionally-raised Lorrdians can interpret body gestures and movements, and can often tell a person's disposition just by their posture. Given enough time, a Lorrdian can get a fairly accurate idea of a person's emotional state. |
This could add a modifier to an opposed con roll.
Also, the Ssi-ruuk have Enhanced Sense (Smell) which can allow any of them with the specialization alien species: human to detect a human lie by scent. I figure it would work for any alien species specialization a Ssi-ruu may have. |
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Theodrim
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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You can't BS a BS'er (or maybe you can, albeit at greater difficulty)...I use Con if the character in question has the skill, otherwise Perception.
Though, in my games the skill only goes so far as to tell whether the person speaking believes what they're saying...pathological liars, individuals with different perspectives (a certain point of view and all), the mislead (or mind-screwed), or the simply misinformed notwithstanding. Or, alternatively, discerning motives and intent; that is to say, the use of half-truths, lying by omission, or twisting truth to selfish or destructive purpose.
My players are all extremely experienced RP'ers and I've been gaming with them for a decade, so they know better than to take anything me as the GM, or my NPC's, say at face value. As always, regardless of the Con result players retain agency to act out their characters as they will based upon the information at hand, so long as they're not metagaming. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Though, in my games the skill only goes so far as to tell whether the person speaking believes what they're saying |
That is something i have rarely hit on when having pc's roll off against NPCs when they con. Whether the NPCs (who are lying) Believe enough that what they are saying is the truth etc..
Also, if someone is not willing to listen to your BS, it doesn't matter how well you roll on con.
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