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Social Manipulation in the Empire
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Mikael Hasselstein
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should, perhaps mention one of the Separatist holdouts, who were not conquered by the Empire immediately after the Clone War.

The Bryx Freedom Fighters eventually joined the Rebel Alliance. This is ironic, because a former Separatist group joined the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

But anyway, these guys notwithstanding, it may be that during the Rebellion era the Empire used the Rebellion in order to justify tightening its grip, but that Rebellion was fairly late in coming.

It seems like in the interwar period there wasn't much of a bogeyman. Or was there?
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lurker
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:
I should, perhaps mention one of the Separatist holdouts, who were not conquered by the Empire immediately after the Clone War.

The Bryx Freedom Fighters eventually joined the Rebel Alliance. This is ironic, because a former Separatist group joined the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

But anyway, these guys notwithstanding, it may be that during the Rebellion era the Empire used the Rebellion in order to justify tightening its grip, but that Rebellion was fairly late in coming.

It seems like in the interwar period there wasn't much of a bogeyman. Or was there?


Ohhhhhh there is ALWAYS a bogeyman. If not there is no reason for government, police, military , etc etc etc. Wink



I always figured there would be lots of little separatist groups out there holding out that would eventually (either sooner or later) fall under the rebellion umbrella. Of course, there may be some 'see I told you so' attitudes. (By the way I'm assuming that there were some good guys heroes even on the separatist side. They may have been mislead and used, but still good guys) ... ok starting to chase a rabbit


Quote:


You also have social manipulation via way of the Comnor SAGroup/youth corps (much like the SS had their youth corps).. Get em young and indoctrinate them.



Rgr that, and that is the scariest part of any totalitarian regime. Whether it is Nazi, Lenin/Stalin or Mao. When you have kids indoctrinated and informing on their parents, friends, teachers, or anyone the see, you are in a very dark place as a society ...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:
So, anyway, what does this imply for our naval structure project?

Just to clarify, are we planning on doing anything with the Imperial Army, too, or is this strictly a Navy project?

Quote:
With me so far, or do you have amendments to suggest?

The description of the Nebulon states that it was introduced in response to Rebel starfighter attacks, so you might want to make it a more recent development as well. Everything else looks fine.

Also, this might be more appropriate to move back over to the Sector Fleet topic...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurker wrote:
I always figured there would be lots of little separatist groups out there holding out that would eventually (either sooner or later) fall under the rebellion umbrella. Of course, there may be some 'see I told you so' attitudes. (By the way I'm assuming that there were some good guys heroes even on the separatist side. They may have been mislead and used, but still good guys) ... ok starting to chase a rabbit

I agree with you on the Separatists joining the Alliance; they were likely trying to break away because the Republic had gotten corrupt and turned away from its founding values, so the idea of restoring a Republic the way it used to be would be a goal for former Separatists to work towards as well.

One can only imagine the chaos among those in opposition to the Empire leading up to the actual formation of the Rebellion. As with 1984, it is possible (even likely) that the Empire would establish false resistance units to entrap those wishing to join. Who knows how many proto-rebels got snapped up by COMPNOR and Imperial Intelligence in those interim years?
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Mikael Hasselstein
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurker wrote:
Ohhhhhh there is ALWAYS a bogeyman. If not there is no reason for government, police, military , etc etc etc. Wink

I always figured there would be lots of little separatist groups out there holding out that would eventually (either sooner or later) fall under the rebellion umbrella.

Sure, but I need stuff from some level of canon to hang my hat on. If you wanted to research some named groups, or references to threats that come out of the canon that the Empire (might have) used to scare up public opinion, then it'd be great to have that.

crmcneill wrote:
Mikael Hasselstein wrote:
So, anyway, what does this imply for our naval structure project?

Just to clarify, are we planning on doing anything with the Imperial Army, too, or is this strictly a Navy project?

It hasn't been my intention to do so, except as part of understanding the requirements for transport logistics and escort.

crmcneill wrote:
Mikael Hasselstein wrote:
With me so far, or do you have amendments to suggest?

The description of the Nebulon states that it was introduced in response to Rebel starfighter attacks, so you might want to make it a more recent development as well. Everything else looks fine.

I'm having a hard time with this. Yes, you're right that this is what is mentioned. But if the rebellion is only 5 years old by the time we see the first Nebulon B in the movies (I can't talk about elsewhere in the EU), how did it get to be so widely proliferated that the rebels were able to get their hands on a number of them? Was it maybe pressed into service so fast that they bypassed normal security policies, which allowed the rebels to make off with them?

crmcneill wrote:
Also, this might be more appropriate to move back over to the Sector Fleet topic...

Yes, sounds good.
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lurker
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikael Hasselstein wrote:


Sure, but I need stuff from some level of canon to hang my hat on. If you wanted to research some named groups, or references to threats that come out of the canon that the Empire (might have) used to scare up public opinion, then it'd be great to have that.

.


Oh, sorry, I was saying that (at least to a point) with tongue in cheek ... In real life, yes oppressive regimes always have, or look to have, both internal and external threats to work against (the boogy man). However, at time, those threats are not just things that go bump in the night but are actually true threats (Nazi/Hitler and Operation Valkyrie for instance).

As for cannon & EU .... My depth of knowledge of cannon is about an inch deep & my knowledge of the EU wouldn't fill a thimble ... With that, I was referring to your 'Bryx Freedom Fighters' as a point (though singular) to support my idea there would be others ... As such, I wouldn't hang a hat on it by any means ...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thought: COMPNOR has a lot of similarities to "the party" in that it can also shape government and society by promoting the careers of SAGroup members into the Imperial Bureaucracy, increasing its own power and influence through the careers of loyal members placed in key positions.

And yes, in the absence of a genuine threat, totalitarian governments will certainly make one of their own, whether real or imagined.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very true. Nothing spurs on the march of the govt doing what it will than having a "threat" to go against, keeping the masses in check.
I could also see them using subliminal messaging in their adverts and news reports, similar to how the Corporate sector is.
Heck one of our sparks games even has rebels (in the guise of corp sector employees) doing just that, making up adverts to 'bolster trust and support for the imperials'.
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Very true. Nothing spurs on the march of the govt doing what it will than having a "threat" to go against, keeping the masses in check.
I could also see them using subliminal messaging in their adverts and news reports, similar to how the Corporate sector is.
Heck one of our sparks games even has rebels (in the guise of corp sector employees) doing just that, making up adverts to 'bolster trust and support for the imperials'.


Shocked

Nice! I would have never thought of that!!!!

As a history guy I can study about those governments and mindsets, but as a good guy I can never think of those little twists that they would use!

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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of our bigger authors in our group came up with that. Great reasn to hit players who don't bother upping their willpower skill.. Subliminal messaging in the news/tv adverts etc as they go through a space port.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Mikael - A chapter of the ImpSB that gets almost completely ignored is the Recruitment, Training & Indoctrination chapter, the very last in the book. On the other hand, it provides some interesting details on the sociology of the Imperial military.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
@Mikael - A chapter of the ImpSB that gets almost completely ignored is the Recruitment, Training & Indoctrination chapter, the very last in the book. On the other hand, it provides some interesting details on the sociology of the Imperial military.

Thanks, I'll check that out.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so I've done more thinking.

Taking Crmcneill's lead, we've characterized the ideology of the Empire as totalitarian, fueled by paranoia for some enemy, both outer (alien) and domestic (traitor/rebel/terrorist). We should build it out a little historically, thinking about the nature of the pre-existing regime, and then fathom what types of social change made the galaxy fall into the Empire.

When I look at RW social dynamics, I use four different lenses, drawn from four social sciences: sociology, cultural anthropology, economics and political science. That paranoia of some enemy or traitor - that's pure sociology right there. The Imperial claim on the monopoly on the use of force within its claimed jurisdiction, that's political science. More on culture and economy in a bit.

First, the Old Republic. Some of you might fill me in, because I haven't played any of the old republic games, but the sense that I get from what I have read and (frankly) from the prequel trilogy, is that the Old Republic was like a neo-liberal paradise with the Republic itself being some sort of United Nations, complete with all its imperfections, bureaucracy and corruption, but also its high-mindedness in the form of egalitarianism, multi-culturalism, open and free economies (subject to the power of oligarchies), etc.

The fact that the separatists were economic conglomerates (the Trade Federation, the Banking Clan, the Techno Union, etc.) suggests that they had some grievance at Republic policy. Maybe they rebelled against regulation and taxation. Added to this is that the Separatist groups were mostly alien and their power bases were on the rim. Nevertheless, they wielded considerable power, suggesting a concentration of power resources - money, technology, lobbyists, and clearly also weapons and droids. It's possibly the case that the rim was more developed during pre-Clone Wars times, but that the destruction of these powerful institutions also created less stability, which allowed the rim to become a bit chaotic and lawless. Couple that with the addition of Hutt cartels, and rampant crime, after the Clone Wars.

In regards to economics, I'm not sure what needs to be said. It feels like the Core worlds are clearly more developed than the rim, and they're only more so post-Clone War. Before the Clone War, the rim certainly had very large economic conglomerates, but that also suggests tremendous inequality. Yet, they were where cheap labor was probably outsourced to.

Culture is a harder nut to crack. I certainly don't want to talk about all the belief systems and such-like, but instead about both social values and the galactic culture of strife. I'm gathering that while there were skirmishes here and there prior to the Clone War, the Clone War was a huge cataclysm, the likes of which the galaxy had not seen for several thousand years. As such, the central authority did not have to have the tremendous military power that it would build under Palpatine's leadership. This peaceful situation wasn't because of some balance of power, but a galactic understanding that violent means are not appropriate for solving political disputes. The Separatists - probably arguing that they were victims of central government overreach - decided to militarize and transgress the previous more peaceful culture. During the Clone War, beliefs were manipulated in order to paint the chaos of the rim as something to be feared; uniformity and order to be embraced.

It's kind of an odd contrast with RW political alignments, but there's some rhyming with it, just like we see with Firefly and 1984. However, I'm not trying to mold the SWU into some symbolic political lesson or message.

Anyway, let me know if the above is coherent or in need of amendment.
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's an excellent analysis, and was quite interesting and thought provoking, Mikael. I'm not that knowledgeable about the Old Republic era, though (only played the MMORPG for a little while).

One thing I'm curious about. You refer to it as the "Clone War" (singular). Isn't it (now in retrospect) known as the Clone Wars (plural)? I know Yoda said "Begun this Clone War has." But I always assumed that he called it that because at the time there was only the one. But that perhaps over time multiple skirmishes ended up causing them to be called the Clone Wars (sort of like in the RW we have had multiple Gulf Wars). I have never watched the Clone Wars cartoons, though, so I only have a bit of knowledge on the subject (and I know Obi-Wan refered to them as the Clone Wars in his talk with Luke).
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Mikael Hasselstein
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
One thing I'm curious about. You refer to it as the "Clone War" (singular). Isn't it (now in retrospect) known as the Clone Wars (plural)? I know Yoda said "Begun this Clone War has." But I always assumed that he called it that because at the time there was only the one. But that perhaps over time multiple skirmishes ended up causing them to be called the Clone Wars (sort of like in the RW we have had multiple Gulf Wars). I have never watched the Clone Wars cartoons, though, so I only have a bit of knowledge on the subject (and I know Obi-Wan refered to them as the Clone Wars in his talk with Luke).


Thanks.

As to your question, I'm not sure why it would be referred to in the plural, so I went with the singular. What would be the different wars, if there was more than one?
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