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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I know some who felt that hideouts and strongholds/pirates and privateers was chock a block full of some WEG designers home made stuff.. |
As good an explanation as any.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I tend to agree. That being established, I'm willing to simply accept that, per WEG's official rules, smart missiles do actually exist, and use that as a basis to develop rules that actually work. |
Episode 2 proved that. Jango certainly fired some sort of seeking missile at Obi-wan's Delta-7. And it worked pretty much like a modern missile.
IMO what would work would be to set up a missile like a mini-starfighter and let it chase targets down by moving on the board. when it enters the same SPACE UNIT it gets to make an attack. Then we could get a good chase with a missile, like we see in Episode 2.
If we assume missles have to acclerate the same way other vehicles do, then the "ranges" in to RAW could simply be how fast the missile can move in the first turn, assume a half move acceleration. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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This presumes that you use a board.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Not necessarily. It could be opposed maneuvering rolls and speed calculations.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | Not necessarily. It could be opposed maneuvering rolls and speed calculations. |
But then you have to take into account angles and maneuvers and other details. I'm okay with some number crunching, but too much can really drag the game down, especially during a fast paced combat scene.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Probably not too much crunching. Angles and such could be broken down into three categories: Head on, side on, or tail. Say head on is worth +5 to the target and tail attack is worth +5 to the missile and you probably got the crunching done. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like a lot of work when I've already developed a house rule that I like that cuts out movement entirely.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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denderan marajain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 13 May 2014
Posts: 213
Location: Vienna, Austria
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I have a question about savant Missiles. These missiles cost 3k credits but in fact they are smart missile (1.5k credits)
whats the exact difference? |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| denderan marajain wrote: | I have a question about savant Missiles. These missiles cost 3k credits but in fact they are smart missile (1.5k credits)
whats the exact difference? |
I think they had a better brain and a higher attack roll, but I'd have to check. |
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denderan marajain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 13 May 2014
Posts: 213
Location: Vienna, Austria
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:31 am Post subject: |
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nuclearwookiee
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Smart Missiles |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Does the 4D Fire Control stack with the gunner's Starship Gunnery dice only on the first round, or continually throughout its flight |
First round only, by my reading. The descriptions in Hideouts & Strongholds are actually pretty useful, I think. As you pointed out, the stats are different from the missiles listed in Pirates & Privateers. But the discrepancy is explained easily enough by noting that the missiles discussed in H&S are speeder scale atmospheric rockets as opposed to the starfighter scale missiles discussed in P&P. They're simply different weapons. However, the insight into the "smart" mechanics is what is useful.
The description of smart missiles in H&S (p. 10) talks about two different ways to fire a smart missile. First, you can lock onto the target and fire the missile. In this case, a character rolls his Missile Weapons skill plus the missile's fire control. Alternatively, you can fire a missile as an "orphan" - firing without first acquiring a targeting lock. In this case, the orphaned missile can attempt to lock onto a target using its targeting system.
We can glean two important pieces of information out of this.
First, H&S seems to indicate that the increased fire control of the individual missile supersedes the base fire control of the weapon. We know this because the example in H&S adds the 2D fire control of that missile to the operator's roll even though the base weapon does not have any fire control in the first place.
Second, H&S makes clear that the missile only gets to roll its own fire control value if the missile itself is attempting the lock. In the H&S example, a missile with a fire control of 2D only rolls 2D to attempt a target lock.
| Lane Arroway wrote: | | By the description in Pirates & Privateers the original shot uses the listed 1D fire control. After missing the "simple" droid brain takes over and uses the 4D fire control to attack. |
This is true for the Savant missiles, but not the Smart missiles, and it all comes down to timing. The Savant acts like a Dumb for the first round and, if the initial shot misses, it becomes a Smart missile with a predesignated target.
The behavior of a smart missile is explained a little further when combining the descriptions in S&H and P&P. P&P says that a "smart missile's simple droid brain is clever enough to pick up on the nearest target, should the first target move out of range." p. 47. H&S also says that a smart missile can only attempt to acquire a target once. Read together, this suggests that a smart missile can attempt a target lock once per target. It also seems to suggest there is some danger in missing with a smart missile, or with firing one as an orphan: the missile will try to latch on to the next closest thing. If you have allies in close proximity to your target, your missile might end up going after one of them if you miss your intended target.
The information that H&S provides on savant missiles adds a little more to the discussion as well. According to H&S, you have to take one round and make a special Missile Weapons skill check to "tag" a target. If unsuccessful, the Savant is just fired as a Dumb missile the next round. If successful, the missile is still fired as a Dumb missile, but the Savant can attempt to hit the target by rolling its 4D fire control if the initial attack misses.
So, to answer denderan marajain's question, there are at least two major differences between Smart and Savant missiles. First, there is an element of deception to Savant missiles. Savants fly straight the first round, like Dumbs. So, if they miss, the enemy pilot might feel safe and may not realize he needs to perform another vehicle dodge in the following round. This could be a costly mistake because of the second difference: Savants usually activate at point-blank range (according to H&S). This is an important distinction. Say you are firing at an enemy ship 15 space units away. This is at the outer limit of long range, so your gunnery roll would need to beat a Difficult difficulty to hit. If the missile was a Savant, however, it gets to make its roll to lock on to the target as soon as the initial shot misses. Thus, it rolls its 4D from point-blank range against a Very Easy difficulty.
I'm not really sure these rules need an overhaul. Yes, 4D seems too little to hit most Hero-piloted vehicles. But how often does that ever happen, anyway? I can't think of any hero that has ever been taken out by a homing missile in Star Wars. If nothing else, a Smart missile adds 4D fire control to your attempt to hit an enemy and, if it misses, the Smart sniffs around with its own 4D to try to pick up another target for a few rounds, eventually locking onto the one poor unlucky b@st@rd* who thought he was safe and decided not to dodge in one round. And even a hero is screwed if he doesn't realize the missile just fired at him was a Savant rather than a Dumb. If the hero doesn't dodge the next round, that missile is going to ruin his day (because 4D would only be rolled against Very Easy difficulty).
As for NPC's, 4D is enough to overcome even a vehicle dodge in some cases. Take a basic TIE/ln, for example: 4D+1 piloting and 2D maneuverability for a total possible evasion roll of 6D+1. But, assuming the enemy is engaged in a fight, it's not unreasonable to expect the enemy pilot to suffer a -2D MAP in any given round (one piloting check, one dodge check, and one attack roll). So the missile's 4D targeting against the enemy's 4D+1 evasion is basically a wash. And like I said above, if the missile fails to lock onto its intended target it will start rolling 4D every round against the next closest target. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 1:26 am Post subject: |
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I have rules lying around somewhere for an AI missile. Essentially, each missile is a droid body, and the droid personality transmits back to the control ship just before detonation. This way, the missile system gains experience (CP) each time it is fired. It gets more and more deadly as time goes on.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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An idea occurred to me regarding smart missiles...
Since we already have an established attack vs. dodge system, a smart missile could just be given stats like a normal weapon, but with a high fire control to represent the guidance system and an increased range to reflect the ability to maneuver and track. Then, if it misses, it is allowed to make a single attack the following round, with the degree of miss determining the range (and thus the base difficulty of its attack).
For example, a smart concussion missile would have stats of Space: 3-6/15/30 and a Fire Control of 4D, with a Guidance of 4D. A pilot firing a smart concussion missile would fire it like a normal weapon, adding his Gunnery to Fire Control. If he misses the shot, the missile's guidance kicks in, serving as the Gunnery roll which is stacked with the missile's fire control. If the shot missed by less than 5 points, the missile may make a single attack the following round from Point Blank range (or Short, if you feel that Point Blank puts it too close), Moderate if the miss is by 6-10 points, and Long if 11-15. If it misses by more than 15 points, it loses lock and self destructs.
What I like about this is that it, in effect, uses the same system as the RAW, just applied in slightly different fashion, so that GMs and players don't have to learn how to do something new.
Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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I like when things fit nicely in.
What I dont like is having to track things round by round unless its the only thing goin on in combat (only one ship vs one ship, for example). Now, this is just my preference.
What I might do is just play the smart missile all the way throgh until it resolves, and then move on to the next character.
This presents problems of its own with initiative and turn order, so a compromise is needed.
I think if the gunner misses on the first shot, perhaps immediately give the missile one opportunity to reestablish pursuit and success allows another attack roll next round. Failure means the attack fails all together.
I dont know... maybe there's no way to make it as "clean" as I'd prefer. |
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nuclearwookiee
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | An idea occurred to me regarding smart missiles...
Since we already have an established attack vs. dodge system, a smart missile could just be given stats like a normal weapon, but with a high fire control to represent the guidance system and an increased range to reflect the ability to maneuver and track. Then, if it misses, it is allowed to make a single attack the following round, with the degree of miss determining the range (and thus the base difficulty of its attack).
For example, a smart concussion missile would have stats of Space: 3-6/15/30 and a Fire Control of 4D, with a Guidance of 4D. A pilot firing a smart concussion missile would fire it like a normal weapon, adding his Gunnery to Fire Control. If he misses the shot, the missile's guidance kicks in, serving as the Gunnery roll which is stacked with the missile's fire control. If the shot missed by less than 5 points, the missile may make a single attack the following round from Point Blank range (or Short, if you feel that Point Blank puts it too close), Moderate if the miss is by 6-10 points, and Long if 11-15. If it misses by more than 15 points, it loses lock and self destructs.
What I like about this is that it, in effect, uses the same system as the RAW, just applied in slightly different fashion, so that GMs and players don't have to learn how to do something new.
Thoughts? |
Isn't this basically just RAW from P&P and H&S (see my post above), but with beefed up stats on the missiles? It's pretty clear from the examples in those books that the Smart and Savant missiles roll only the value of their Fire Control when it is the missile itself making the attack. If you want to double the missile's capability by adding 4d Guidance onto 4d Fire Control, you would probably need to replace the standard droid brains in those missiles with more substantial droid brains (because having a "Guidance" of 4d is really the same as saying the onboard droid brain has Starship Gunnery at 4d).
I do like the idea of a scatter effect (kind of like a grenade miss) determining the initial range for the missile's roll to follow a target. But this will vary depending on the type of missile. A Smart missile, for example, attempts a target lock on the initial target at the moment the missile is fired. If that target moves out of range, the missile will then attempt to acquire a new target. And so the baseline range would obviously be the distance from the missile to Target2 at the time Target1 moves out of range.
Things are different for a Savant missile. Because the gunner has to roll a separate check to tag the target prior to firing the missile, the Savant's onboard targeting system doesn't activate until and unless the gunner misses with the initial shot. If the gunner narrowly misses, then the Savant should roll against only a Point Blank range difficulty. Obviously, then, the wider the initial shot, the further away the Savant will be when it activates. So if the gunner initially misses, I would first compare the gunner's attack roll against the range difficulty (and not the target's Dodge). Just add this shortfall to the range difficulty of the missile when it makes its own roll against range (if the target dodges, obviously you just use that total instead). |
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