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Hellcat
Grand Moff
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Location: New England
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 Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Powered Melee Weapons in the SWU |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I recall a recent topic (which I can't seem to find) where the point was made that certain melee weapons (such as the vibroblade) did not feel particularly "Star Wars-ish". Speaking for myself, I like having exotic melee weapons incorporated into a sci-fi universe, especially for close quarters combat. In addition to the various light and vibro weapons available in the RAW, I also use power and chain weapons from Warhammer 40K, just to add a little spice and variety. I'm curious as to what melee weapons the rest of you use in your campaigns. |
I have to agree with you on vibro weapons. Their more the common man's lightsaber. Sure their not quite as cool as the lightsaber as they don't tend to cut through almost anything like lightsabers do and they don't have the same mystique about them as lightsabers. But come on, not everyone's gonna just pick up a lightsaber or a derivative of one (like the lightfoil). And if you're going to pick up a blade, why not have it do more damage by vibrating at an extremely high rate? I mean a regular knife does STR+1D damage where as a regular vibroblade does STR+3D damage. Both max out at 6D. If you've got 3D in Strength, which are you going to want more?
That's not to say that the vibroblade is absolutely superior to the knife. When switched on vibroblades and lightsabers make noise. I seem to recall one of the Han Solo Adventures novels having some mention of a slight hum so it doesn't sound like it should be all that loud, not as loud as a lightsaber. So for stealth vibro weapons and lightsabers need shut off until the last possible moment. Knives remain relatively silent unless droped or possibly if thrown (they may make a whistleing noise depending on the design but most likely even thrown their going to be silent.
For a non-Jedi or non-Saber Rake type character I like the idea of them haveing something like this to use. More low tech than a blaster, but then up close and personal is sometimes the way to go.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Indeed. A very humbling experience for a low to mid-level Jedi, getting their tail handed to them by a non-FS melee combatant. |
The way Lightsaber Combat works in the RAW, if the Jedi can't cut up his opponent, it is pretty easy to have a non-force sensitive martial artist give the Jedi a beatdown. My Jedi has found those sorts of non-lethal confrontations challenging. (Thought I do recall that you house rule Jedi combat skills in a way that makes that event much less likely for Jedi in your campaign.) |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | The way Lightsaber Combat works in the RAW, if the Jedi can't cut up his opponent, it is pretty easy to have a non-force sensitive martial artist give the Jedi a beatdown. My Jedi has found those sorts of non-lethal confrontations challenging. (Thought I do recall that you house rule Jedi combat skills in a way that makes that event much less likely for Jedi in your campaign.) |
It's no secret that I think Jedi should be more formidable than the way they are presented in the WEG rules, so yes, I do make the Jedi more capable. The key to that is presenting them with in-game obstacles to putting that power to full use (such as garhkal's disturbance in the Force rules), or by presenting them with equally challenging opponents (such as high-level Red Guards with Force Pikes that can block lightsabers without taking damage).
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | It's no secret that I think Jedi should be more formidable than the way they are presented in the WEG rules, so yes, I do make the Jedi more capable. The key to that is presenting them with in-game obstacles to putting that power to full use... |
I don't disagree with your desire for Jedi skills to apply to other forms of combat. Game balance is one of the reasons I leave the rules as it. But be that as it may, following the RAW does allow the opportunity of presenting a very lethal (lightsaber wielding) Jedi warrior with a non-lethal challenge. This situation is then one the Jedi can't win by direct combat. The Jedi than needs to use some other method of resolving the situation.
I'd actually like to see a scene where the Jedi, rather than physically defeating his opponent instead has to use his stamina, willpower, control pain, etc. to continue an encounter against an opponent he can't physically defeat. The Jedi continues to fight, bloody but unbowed, which proves the Jedi's total dedication to his cause allowing him to win a moral rather than a physical victory over a stronger opponent. And based on the way a lightsaber duel works, one can easily see why this works better for brawling than for lightsabers.  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Powered Melee Weapons in the SWU |
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| Hellcat wrote: | | That's not to say that the vibroblade is absolutely superior to the knife. When switched on vibroblades and lightsabers make noise. I seem to recall one of the Han Solo Adventures novels having some mention of a slight hum so it doesn't sound like it should be all that loud, not as loud as a lightsaber. So for stealth vibro weapons and lightsabers need shut off until the last possible moment. Knives remain relatively silent unless droped or possibly if thrown (they may make a whistleing noise depending on the design but most likely even thrown their going to be silent. |
In Pirates & Privateers, an advanced vibroblade was introduced that muted the buzz so that it could be used silently. Neat innovation... Another idea I liked was the mono-blade from RoE. I recall reading somewhere (in a Shadowrun sourcebook or something) of a mono-sword that was constructed by taking a normal sword and adhering what was essentially a length of slice wire to the blade's cutting edge, so that it had the durability of a normal weapon but the cutting ability of a mono-weapon.
| Quote: | | For a non-Jedi or non-Saber Rake type character I like the idea of them haveing something like this to use. More low tech than a blaster, but then up close and personal is sometimes the way to go. |
I agree. I recently introduced close combat specialist troopers who use an energized riot shield and a heavy blaster pistol equipped with what is essentially a force bayonet under the barrel. The shield protects them from enemy blaster fire, the blaster pistol is deadly in close, and anybody who gets close enough to touch gets a zap from the force bayonet on the pistol.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Powered Melee Weapons in the SWU |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | In Pirates & Privateers, an advanced vibroblade was introduced that muted the buzz so that it could be used silently... |
I believe that was Laserhone's Talon Vibrodagger and it was not muted, it was ultrasonic. So while humans wouldn't hear it, some species or sensors might. There are also weapons that autoturn on when drawn. Allowing one to wait until the last moment to draw and use.
I've always given vibroblades a teeth grating, insectile whine rather than a buzz. I can't recall if I read that somewhere, but since they vibrate too fast to see it seems like the pitch should be higher than a buzz or hum and I like the idea that they sound like a superfast dentist drill. Makes them more unsettling. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | On a related note, what is your take on Force Pikes? Are they simply an upgraded form of shock weapon, or does the "Force" part of the weapon generate an energy barrier that allows the pike to parry a lightsaber without taking damage? Personally, I prefer the latter, especially since they seem to be the primary weapon of the Red Guard (since they are guarding the Emperor, a major concern would have to be a Jedi trying to assassinate Palpatine, so the Red Guard would need a weapon that did something other than look very cool while getting sliced in half by a lightsaber). |
I run force pikes as being staffs that have basic blaster-type emitters on the tip. The range is almost nil, as there are no galven coils, but they work like Bang Sticks. Most aditionally carry vibroblades on the tip. Imperial guards use ones made of lightsaber-resistant alloys, or more rarely, ones that have all the critical components in the tip. (So even if the weapon is bisected during a jab, Newton will carry the deadly parts to the Jedi's face.)
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Powered Melee Weapons in the SWU |
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| Bren wrote: | | I believe that was Laserhone's Talon Vibrodagger and it was not muted, it was ultrasonic. So while humans wouldn't hear it, some species or sensors might. There are also weapons that autoturn on when drawn. Allowing one to wait until the last moment to draw and use. |
That's right. I couldn't remember the name or the specifics.
| Quote: | | I've always given vibroblades a teeth grating, insectile whine rather than a buzz. I can't recall if I read that somewhere, but since they vibrate too fast to see it seems like the pitch should be higher than a buzz or hum and I like the idea that they sound like a superfast dentist drill. Makes them more unsettling. |
Yeah, that sound is perfect for setting my teeth on edge. I think the original introduction of vibroblades was in Han Solo's Revenge, where the sound is described as an "insistent hum".
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Powered Melee Weapons in the SWU |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Yeah, that sound is perfect for setting my teeth on edge. I think the original introduction of vibroblades was in Han Solo's Revenge, where the sound is described as an "insistent hum". |
Teeth on edge is exactly what the whining sound should do.
Yes, I believe one of the Han Solo books was the first introduction of a vibroblade or vibroshiv. But I don't have the book in front of me to recall the quote. Did you just look it up and if so what's the chapter reference?
For me, irrespective of the text, a vroom hum sound should be reserved for a lightsaber. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | On a related note, what is your take on Force Pikes? Are they simply an upgraded form of shock weapon, or does the "Force" part of the weapon generate an energy barrier that allows the pike to parry a lightsaber without taking damage? Personally, I prefer the latter, especially since they seem to be the primary weapon of the Red Guard (since they are guarding the Emperor, a major concern would have to be a Jedi trying to assassinate Palpatine, so the Red Guard would need a weapon that did something other than look very cool while getting sliced in half by a lightsaber). |
I have asked about force pikes and LS deflection before.. most seem to think they must have some form of magnetization, like the magna guards staves in ATOC/ROTS..
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I have asked about force pikes and LS deflection before.. most seem to think they must have some form of magnetization, like the magna guards staves in ATOC/ROTS.. |
It appears to me that the Magna Guards have special weapons - which from the name (electrostaff) and the visual is different than the forcepikes used by Jabba's guards.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Powered Melee Weapons in the SWU |
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| Bren wrote: | | Yes, I believe one of the Han Solo books was the first introduction of a vibroblade or vibroshiv. But I don't have the book in front of me to recall the quote. Did you just look it up and if so what's the chapter reference? |
Page 251 in the Trilogy book (Page 7 of Chapter 4).
| Quote: | | For me, irrespective of the text, a vroom hum sound should be reserved for a lightsaber. |
I agree. But it should definitely be a hum that is separate and distinct from my electric razor.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Powered Melee Weapons in the SWU |
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| crmcneill wrote: | Page 251 in the Trilogy book (Page 7 of Chapter 4).
| Quote: | | For me, irrespective of the text, a vroom hum sound should be reserved for a lightsaber. |
I agree. But it should definitely be a hum that is separate and distinct from my electric razor. |
Thanks. Saved me scanning through my books.
So Brian Daley says the vibroblade (about the half again the length of Han's hand) "filled the air with an insistent hum" and later "Han jumped backward as the vibroblade slit the air where he had stood, its droning field sounding aroused now." Later yet, "Han heard the dull burring of the knife's field by his left ear and, distracted by it, fell victim to a deft leg-trip;" and even later "Its drone filled Han's ears..."
Though clearly described as a hum or drone, "filling the air" and ""sounding aroused" make it seem like a noticable or loud sound. "Dull burring," on the other hand does not sound loud.
A hand and a half seems around 10 inches / 25 cm. This seems like vibrodagger size. I would expect a vibro axe or vibro sword would be considerably louder. Therefore I am going with the notion that the sound is at least as loud as a lightsaber. And Daley aside, I think I will stick with a teeth-grating, insectile whine reminiscent of a dentist's drill. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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Works for me.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Powered Melee Weapons in the SWU |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I agree. But it should definitely be a hum that is separate and distinct from my electric razor. |
Well that depends on what your razor sounds like, doesn't it? 
Judging by the physics involved and the most likely methods of causing vibration, I think if a real vibroknife were made, it would most likely produce a sine wave, which is a very musical and ringing sound.
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