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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | And its that first line (there is a limit to how high it goes) that shows it is based on racial max. BUT after checking base 2nd ed (not revised), it does show in there, you roll regardless.. I find that interesting. I guess everyone i have played with like me, made the assumption that the first line Was meaning it starts being rolled at the max. |
Nope. Otherwise it would say that.
In fact even the term limit may be a bit misleading. If you include a wild die in the roll of the player and the GM then there actually is no limit (since in theory with enough sixes on the wild die the GM could exceed any roll the player makes), just a decreasing probability of success for the GM to outroll the player.
Here is a little fun with numbers. If you don't include a wild die roll than the limit is the maximum roll by the GM compared to the minimum roll by the player. Let's look at an example. Species maximum for a human is 4D. The maximum roll (without a wild die) for the GM therefore is a 24. What is the most dice that could be rolled to get a roll of 24 or less. Obviously if the player rolls a 1 on every die, the highest a human attribute could reach is 24D. So 24D is a limit, but not much of a limit.  Assuming the player started at a 3D attribute and all attribute increase rolls succeed and no additional CPs are spent to decrease the training time, then this would cost 8,910 CPs and would take 121+ years of training (with a teacher). Note training time is 1 Star Wars week per CP required for the increase and Star Wars weeks are 5 days in length (see Timekeeping and Calendar on page 199).
OK what about getting to a somewhat more reasonable 5D attribute. This would cost 360 CPs and about 4.9 years devoted to training with a teacher. This shows us that a character who increased his attributes much above species maximum must be able to devote a lot of time and CPs to doing only that.
If we assume the character starts with a 4D attribute (max for a human) then the cost drops to 270 CPs and the time to 3 and 2/3 years which is still darn costly and time consuming. Of course one can shorten the training time, but that increases the CP cost by 1 pt per day decreased minimum 1 week training required per attempt. At that point you better be getting CPs based on ticket sales like Luke Skywalker and you better be in 3 block buster films.  |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Then why of the 2 examples listed IN the R&E book, the only one where the 'roll' comes into place is when you ARE exceeding your normal max?
| Code: | Example: Thannik wants to improve his
Knowledge attribute from 2D+2 to 3D. It costs 20
Character Points and takes 20 weeks of training
if he has a teacher.
When his Knowledge improves to 3D, all of his
Knowledge skills also go up by one pip: alien
species: Wookiees, goes from 3D+2 to 4D. |
No roll....
| Code: | Example: A player's human character has a
Dexterity of 4D and wants to improve it to 4D+1.
After spending 40 Character Points and training,
the player rolls the new Dexterity of 4D+1 and
gets a 17.
The gamemaster sees that
the human maximum Dexterity
is 4D; he rolls 4D and gets
a 15.
The character's Dexterity
does not improve, but
the character gets 20 Character
Points back. If the
player had rolled less
than a 15, the Dexterity
would have increased
to 4D+l. |
From page 35/36..
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Guardian_A
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Joined: 24 May 2011
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Location: South Dakota, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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For what its worth, here are a couple of house rules on the subject that I've seen over my years playing Star Wars D6:
I've personally always allowed characters to raise their attributes to their racial max. However, I made a house rule early on that prevents characters from raising any stats above that number. On the other hand, I have given some of my major villans as it helped to give them that "Bigger than life" feel.
I also knew another GM who had a house rules about attributes. Up to your racial max, raising stats went by the standard cost, but he doubled the cost of all attributes above racial max. The trade off was that you didnt have to roll for it. |
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Guardian_A wrote: |
I also knew another GM who had a house rules about attributes. Up to your racial max, raising stats went by the standard cost, but he doubled the cost of all attributes above racial max. The trade off was that you didnt have to roll for it. |
I think that ends up being a deep discount awful quickly...
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Guardian_A
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Location: South Dakota, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Guardian_A wrote: |
I also knew another GM who had a house rules about attributes. Up to your racial max, raising stats went by the standard cost, but he doubled the cost of all attributes above racial max. The trade off was that you didnt have to roll for it. |
I think that ends up being a deep discount awful quickly... |
Most of the players werent really sure about his approach to the issue. However, he wasnt with our group long enough for it to become an issue, so we didnt get to see how it played out. |
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Then why of the 2 examples listed IN the R&E book, the only one where the 'roll' comes into place is when you ARE exceeding your normal max? |
Because they are only examples, not rules per se. The first example illustrates the cost and time to attempt an increase. It occurs in the text before the rule describing the process for rolling to see if an attempt succeeds, therefore it does not illustrate that process. After the text describing the process for rolling we see the second example that illustrates rolling to see if the attempt succeeds. Since the designers also wanted to show that attributes could increase above species maximum they use an example that shows both the roll and that an attribute can go above maximum.
Rules govern play. Examples illustrate, but do not supercede rules. The rule states that the GM and player roll to see if an attribute increase attempt succeeds and no exception to that rule is made.
Personally I find it illustrative that the stats for the characters in the movies have 18D of attributes, not more. This tells me that the designers intended attribute increases to be rare not common, and difficult and costly, not cheap and easy. Including the roll for all attribute increases seems quite in line with the stats for Han, Chewie, Luke, and Leia.
Of course, like anyone else, you are free to create a house rule that only requires a roll when increasing over species maximum. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Guardian_A wrote: |
I also knew another GM who had a house rules about attributes. Up to your racial max, raising stats went by the standard cost, but he doubled the cost of all attributes above racial max. The trade off was that you didnt have to roll for it. |
I think that ends up being a deep discount awful quickly... |
Personally, I'm amazed that the characters are able to acquire enough CPs for this to occur often enough to even be much of an issue. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Some players prefer to not spend on inc the skills, until they do the attribute. Depending on what your skills are (level) and how many you have it may be more cost effective to do the attribute..
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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But how many would still choose to do so if it was not a sure thing?
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Guardian_A wrote: |
I also knew another GM who had a house rules about attributes. Up to your racial max, raising stats went by the standard cost, but he doubled the cost of all attributes above racial max. The trade off was that you didnt have to roll for it. |
I think that ends up being a deep discount awful quickly... |
Personally, I'm amazed that the characters are able to acquire enough CPs for this to occur often enough to even be much of an issue. |
Well, awful quickly in terms of attribute improvement, not in terms of adventures or real time. And apparently, the GM didn't stick around long enough for the rule to matter, so I guess that makes you exactly right... 
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | But how many would still choose to do so if it was not a sure thing? |
I had my Jedi (Bren) raise an attribute twice - he raised Perception from 2D to 2D+2. I waited until the cost to increase all the listed skills on perception was about 5 CPs higher than the cost to attempt an attribute roll. I got lucky both times. I have not tried to raise Dexterity (from 3D to 3D+1) even though those skills are 9-10 CPs over the attribute cost for three reasons (1) don't have the 30 weeks of time, (2) don't have the CPs saved up, (3) the risk of losing 15 CPs on a failed roll seems high. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | But how many would still choose to do so if it was not a sure thing? |
Point taken..
For those who DO use the 'roll' rule, how often (if ever) do you see pcs stock piling CPs FOR attribute increases?
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Not often. I tend to play moderately min/max and my main character was played for 10 real time years, about 50 scenarios, and earned hundreds of CPs, but only ever saved enough CPs to increase from 2D to 2D+2 on a stat he used a lot that had a 4D species max. I don't think any of the other players in the campaign increased any attributes.
The movie characters (Han, Luke, Leia, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Qui-Gon, Padme) don't have stats above species max nor more than 18D of attributes. I don't really see that the PCs should be better than the movie characters. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen on character stockpile over 200 character points. Not sure why he just tends to save them rather than spend them.
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Drop Bear
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| now that's just silly, I've had close to 100 saved for a big Force abilities and unused skill buy (house rule can't upgrade Skills unless you use them or practice/study them a lot in game) to take place between Campaign Arcs |
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