| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
 Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 10:44 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | The Alderaan would have been pretty safe, with all those people spending their CPs to resist damage. Even with scale differences the Death Star wouldnt have stood a chance to scratch the surface...  |
Well, the rules say a maximum of 5 CPs can be spent to resist damage, though I suppose the Alderaanians could try combined actions to offset the 18D scale difference.  But who has a good enough command skill to combine that many people? |
Im not that up to date with how many character points you may spend, as we dont allow that..
BTW, regarding adding for damage in one passage and to atribute rolls in another, I guess what they mean is that you can add CPs to damage based on the characters STR. Actually you are adding to the STR part of the damage roll.
Another thing that speaks for this is the fact that damage (ie, non STR related) is unaltered by Force Points, which are more major manifestations of the force.
So I guess adding to hull roll is stretching it...(but each to their own and all that...)
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 11:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | BTW, regarding adding for damage in one passage and to atribute rolls in another, I guess what they mean is that you can add CPs to damage based on the characters STR. Actually you are adding to the STR part of the damage roll. |
Well the first part of the rolls seem to be saying that, but in the list that occurs later they specifically call out adding up to 2 CPs to a damage roll rather than a STR attribute. Also, given that most melee weapons have a STR limit to the damage done, adding to STR doesn't necessarily add to damage (according to the RAW). So the rule seems a bit self contradictory. This part of the rules probably needed an errata anyway since even the example they give on page 84 for Thannik using a vibro-ax seems to ignore the damage cap that is mentioned later on page 97.
Guess all this just gives you another reason to like your house rule treatment of CPs as only skill points. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 11:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | BTW, regarding adding for damage in one passage and to atribute rolls in another, I guess what they mean is that you can add CPs to damage based on the characters STR. Actually you are adding to the STR part of the damage roll. |
Well the first part of the rolls seem to be saying that, but in the list that occurs later they specifically call out adding up to 2 CPs to a damage roll rather than a STR attribute. Also, given that most melee weapons have a STR limit to the damage done, adding to STR doesn't necessarily add to damage (according to the RAW). So the rule seems a bit self contradictory. This part of the rules probably needed an errata anyway since even the example they give on page 84 for Thannik using a vibro-ax seems to ignore the damage cap that is mentioned later on page 97.
Guess all this just gives you another reason to like your house rule treatment of CPs as only skill points. |
Originally its says you can add CPs to attribute rolls, not to attributes per se. That can explain why attribute rolls and damage rolls are handled separately. But as pointed out, the rule is not consistent, what a shock!!
However, if you could add to all damage rolls it seems a bit strange that FPs dont modify damage.
This is a bit academic to me as pointed out. I dont think its an arguement to not use CPs though. Its just a matter of chosing your own method here. My arguement for not using CPs this way is mostly that I thought it a bit silly to have both NPCs and PCs adding character points. Why not just remove them. Also, players tended to spend most of their CPs which meant very little character development.
Edit: And BTW, what does 'this often counts as an evil action' mean? I hate those blurbs a thoughtless designers add seemingly as an afterthougth with no connection to the rest of the system.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | I'm on the fence on this one. If droid PCs are allowed to spend Force Points and Character Points, then the jump from one inanimate object to another is not too much of a stretch. However, it does seem at the outer limits for what a CP can be used for. It could go either way depending on the GM's preference. |
The difference there to me, is a droid pc is still a PC, where as a ship is equipment.
| Quote: | | In many ways, ships like the Millennium Falcon are characters in their own right, without which, the Star Wars films would not be what they were. Should special ships (like those belonging to characters) have their own version of CPs that allow the ship to do things and survive things that other, more common ships might not? |
And how would one decide if the ship deemed it worthy of using a CP on the roll for? What of how would it regain them?
| Quote: | | Well the first part of the rolls seem to be saying that, but in the list that occurs later they specifically call out adding up to 2 CPs to a damage roll rather than a STR attribute. Also, given that most melee weapons have a STR limit to the damage done, adding to STR doesn't necessarily add to damage (according to the RAW). So the rule seems a bit self contradictory. This part of the rules probably needed an errata anyway since even the example they give on page 84 for Thannik using a vibro-ax seems to ignore the damage cap that is mentioned later on page 97. |
IMO the cp expenditure on melee attacks CAN take you past the cap..
| Quote: | | However, if you could add to all damage rolls it seems a bit strange that FPs dont modify damage. |
They do if melee or brawl (by doubling your strength).
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well only important NPCs are supposed to even have CPs, so an entire planet of NPCs should not game mechanically have any ability to resist the Death Star anyway. IMO, there's nothing wrong with the RAW that give some NPCs CPs (and FPs) because it is up to the GM to temper CP assignment to NPCs with wisdom. Not every Joe-Blow-Alderaanian should have CPs. That's just silly.
As far as a PC improving his ship's hull roll to resist damage, that isn't technically allowed by RAW but I don't see why not as an optional house rule. CPs partially represent minor manifestiations of the Force such as luck, so I don't see why they can't apply a little extra luck to their ship. No, I don't apply the same thing to Force Points because those are much more poweful manifestations of the Force and have always clearly been meant to improve character abilities only. FPs could double your piloting skill and space survival roll, but not your ship's maneuverability code or hull.
As far as the CP/FP differentiation when applying the bonus to damage from attacks that include STR, yes, I agree the rule could use some clarification, but the example of the character exceeding the normal limit to the STR portion of the damage means that the CP bonus is applying to overall attack and not only the character's STR portion (which is subject to the STR limit). And since it just says damage in general that would apply to shooting blasters and starship gunnery. I interpret the bonus to come from the attack being made better to be more damaging. But again, FPs clearly only double your attributes and skills, so they do not directly effect your overall damage roll (unless only from STR like brawling). When using a melee weapons that includes STR in the damage up to a overall limit, FPs only double the STR portion only, and so the overall damage limit would still apply.
Despite the fact that FPs and CPs are both manifestations of the Force, I've never had any trouble differentiating the mechanics of the two because I ran this game for over 4 years before CPs existed. In the beginning we only had FPs, so in 2E the "burning" aspect of CPs were a new mechanic and I've always viewed them seperately. FPs and CPs are different and apply in different ways. And the rules for CPs always appropriately stated CPs cannot be used in the same round as an FP, so thankfully we don't have the confusion that would likely have caused in RAW to debate here. 8)
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | I'm on the fence on this one. If droid PCs are allowed to spend Force Points and Character Points, then the jump from one inanimate object to another is not too much of a stretch. However, it does seem at the outer limits for what a CP can be used for. It could go either way depending on the GM's preference. |
The difference there to me, is a droid pc is still a PC, where as a ship is equipment.
| Quote: | | In many ways, ships like the Millennium Falcon are characters in their own right, without which, the Star Wars films would not be what they were. Should special ships (like those belonging to characters) have their own version of CPs that allow the ship to do things and survive things that other, more common ships might not? |
And how would one decide if the ship deemed it worthy of using a CP on the roll for? What of how would it regain them? |
Interesting discusion. I agreed that droids are characters while ships are equipment in general.
But I've actually had a couple ships in my game that were game-mechanically droids by them having droid brains installed to control the computer systems. I've never had a ship that was fully automated and could completely fly itself so there were limits to what it could do (and any droid having combat skills would be severely restricted to illegal in the time of the Empire anyway). Other characters could talk to the droid-ship internally of it through microphone/speakers, and even remotely through comlinks. It could do basic functions like close and open hatches, power down and up, and perhaps even hover in one spot by itself. Maybe it could even do some basic sensor checks itself and look up basic planetary systems info from the navicomputer. The use of some of these abilities would be governed by me (the GM) making skill checks for the droid-ship, even if it was low-skilled so could only do very easy stuff on its own.
No droids (including Artoo) have FPs in my game, and since I feel that all PCs should have FPs, no PC can be a strait droid in my game (but I do allow Shards). But the ship described above was more than just equipment. Being a droid made it a character, and it being a character would mean it could have CPs. Since it was an NPC (and could never be a PC in my game), I as the GM decided when it used a CP to boost a hull roll or whatever. And as GM, I decided what experience the droid-ship gained (how many CPs) for any adventures it was a part of. Being a ship that could only do so much, it's "character advancement" was extremely slow.
This idea behind a droid-ship character is not completely unprecedented in Star Wars. In the EU, Lando Calrissian's self-aware droid Vuffi Raa turned out to be a member of a droid-ship species that grew into massive starships as they "aged". And in the prequel films, the Trade Federation and CIS had battle-droid starfighters that may have recieved some guidance from a droid control ship but were still somewhat independant with no pilot flying them.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | However, if you could add to all damage rolls it seems a bit strange that FPs dont modify damage. |
They do if melee or brawl (by doubling your strength). |
My thoughts regarding adding CPs to Damage was that the designers had only Melee/Brawling in mind (regarding the earier passage about only adding to skills and attribute tests). So in that sense CPs and FPs are consistent.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | In many ways, ships like the Millennium Falcon are characters in their own right, without which, the Star Wars films would not be what they were. Should special ships (like those belonging to characters) have their own version of CPs that allow the ship to do things and survive things that other, more common ships might not? |
And how would one decide if the ship deemed it worthy of using a CP on the roll for? What of how would it regain them? |
In the same way that player characters are distinct from the low-level non-player characters. Some ships are "more special" than others, and can survive damage and/or perform feats that other "lesser" vessels cannot. In turn, they would gain character points (or their equivalent) in similar fashion: by performing heroic acts in concert with the player characters.
This idea is based in part on the ship construction system in the Serenity RPG, where ships are actually given attributes to define their performance and limitations, including unique behavioral traits, assets / complications, etc.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
|
| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 9:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I had been in the middle on this one until I realized that there has to be some way to keep the PCs ship safe at certain times, other than GM intervention (fudging). I know if I had spent a lot of time modifying a ship and it went down on a fluke I'd be pretty upset.
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
|
| Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 1:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | The Alderaan would have been pretty safe, with all those people spending their CPs to resist damage. Even with scale differences the Death Star wouldnt have stood a chance to scratch the surface... |
Well, the rules say a maximum of 5 CPs can be spent to resist damage, though I suppose the Alderaanians could try combined actions to offset the 18D scale difference. But who has a good enough command skill to combine that many people? |
That's why I only let the pilot add CP to the hull.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Whill wrote: | | Well only important NPCs are supposed to even have CPs, |
Even book listed mook troopers carry an ave of 3cp each. well 0-5 as of rules of engagement.
| Quote: | | I had been in the middle on this one until I realized that there has to be some way to keep the PCs ship safe at certain times, other than GM intervention (fudging). I know if I had spent a lot of time modifying a ship and it went down on a fluke I'd be pretty upset. |
So you are all for allowing CP to be spent to inc the hull roll?
| Quote: | | That's why I only let the pilot add CP to the hull. |
For me, that they get to add to the dodge roll before hand is imo enough.[/code]
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Well only important NPCs are supposed to even have CPs, |
Even book listed mook troopers carry an ave of 3cp each. well 0-5 as of rules of engagement. |
Rebel troopers? OK, even so, the planet Alderaan did not have millions of Rebel troopers.
I disagree with most of the statting done in WEG books anyway. There was no overall editing on stats at WEG, so each author was free to just put whatever and anything would be approved. WEG stats are very inconsistent and sometimes the stats don't reflect the fluff text very well. Some stats are just plain wacky. I tweak almost all stats of WEG to make more logical and consistent.
Please allow me to amend my previous statement to "IMO, only important NPCs are supposed to even have CPs.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Whill wrote: | | Please allow me to amend my previous statement to "IMO, only important NPCs are supposed to even have CPs. |
Why ever would the GM want to give every NPC character points? Having CPs (and a FP) when the mooks don't is what allows beginning Star Wars PCs to act like minor heroes from day 1. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was on about IMPS.. Admittedly the R&E rule books suggests mooks not get any, but most modules or other sources (eg adventure journals) list stormies generic, as having 0-3, officers as 3-6, higher officers as 7-10....
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | I was on about IMPS.. Admittedly the R&E rule books suggests mooks not get any, but most modules or other sources (eg adventure journals) list stormies generic, as having 0-3, officers as 3-6, higher officers as 7-10.... |
Generally I just interpret 0-3 as being 0, for the reason I stated, and go from there. After all, if storm troopers had character points, then they wouldn't just fall down and go dead when shot once or twice - ergo they must not have CPs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
