| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
 Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:42 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| cheshire wrote: | | At what point does the Dunning–Kruger effect kick in? |
Interesting observation. Trying to devise something to use that routinely seems overly complicated to me. I'd stick with just assuming small differences (less than 1D) are essentially undetectable to PCs and NPCs, but that over time larger differences are detectable. I can see using the D-K effect to justify a personality quirk of false sense of superiority/inferiority in either an NPC or a PC.
Do you have an idea on when and how one should apply the effect?
| Hellcat wrote: | | I imagine there'll be cases of PCs comparing their skills to see where they stand. |
I think that an accuracy skill like blaster is a lot easier to test than some/most skills. There is an entire industry that tries to test academic skills/abilities with somewhat ambiguous results. If I think back to my academic days, knowing who is best in a subject was not nearly as straight forward as a few games of darts and really testing some skills e.g. vehicle operation skills has a chance to cause a crash or other bad result.
I like the idea of the PCs (and players too) not knowing exactly how their skills compare. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4853
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | At what point does the Dunning–Kruger effect kick in? |
Interesting observation. Trying to devise something to use that routinely seems overly complicated to me. I'd stick with just assuming small differences (less than 1D) are essentially undetectable to PCs and NPCs, but that over time larger differences are detectable. I can see using the D-K effect to justify a personality quirk of false sense of superiority/inferiority in either an NPC or a PC.
Do you have an idea on when and how one should apply the effect?
|
Sometimes my characters will roll a technical roll to see if they know enough about performing a repair task. I'm not sure why, but they do. Sometimes they'll roll a knowledge roll to achieve a similar result. Perhaps this is where a 1 on the wild die would come in handy. 
_________________
__________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cheshire wrote: | | Sometimes my characters will roll a technical roll to see if they know enough about performing a repair task. I'm not sure why, but they do. Sometimes they'll roll a knowledge roll to achieve a similar result. Perhaps this is where a 1 on the wild die would come in handy. |
Well, Dunning–Kruger effect could be useful explaining why the difficulty guestimate is off. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not sure i would like the DK effect in game.... unless it was someone's own personality flaw.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hellcat
Grand Moff
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 11921
Location: New England
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | Hellcat wrote: | | I imagine there'll be cases of PCs comparing their skills to see where they stand. |
I think that an accuracy skill like blaster is a lot easier to test than some/most skills. There is an entire industry that tries to test academic skills/abilities with somewhat ambiguous results. If I think back to my academic days, knowing who is best in a subject was not nearly as straight forward as a few games of darts and really testing some skills e.g. vehicle operation skills has a chance to cause a crash or other bad result.
I like the idea of the PCs (and players too) not knowing exactly how their skills compare. |
Actually I'd say most skills would be a lot easier to compare, especially the further apart PC's are in that skill. How about starfighter piloting or space transports? Someone with more skill is going to be able to pull off even the most basic manuevers with such finese that you'd think the ship was like a second skin to them. Search, a lower search rating may turn up a trail or maybe find a ruck sack, a higher search rating may be able to tell how long ago someone just used that trail or find a cigarette butt in a fairly cluttered corner. Someone with a high beast riding rating would be more likely to ride just about any beast without much difficulty. It's very easy for PCs to compare their skills and see who more consistently out preforms the others.
_________________
FLUFFY for President!!!!
Wanted Poster |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hellcat wrote: | Actually I'd say most skills would be a lot easier to compare, especially the further apart PC's are in that skill.
How about starfighter piloting or space transports? |
I think anyone with professional skill will pull off basic maneuvers easily. Only once you do something a little trickier e.g. space transport equivalent of parallel parking can you tell the difference between say 4D and 6D. And to differentiate 6D from 9D you need a very difficult activity.
| Quote: | | Search, a lower search rating may turn up a trail or maybe find a ruck sack, a higher search rating may be able to tell how long ago someone just used that trail or find a cigarette butt in a fairly cluttered corner. |
But until you actually track them down successfully you won't really know that the "how long ago" guestimate was accurate rather than bullsh*t or a 1 on the wild die.
| Quote: | | Someone with a high beast riding rating would be more likely to ride just about any beast without much difficulty. |
But if all you have is one type of beast?
| Quote: | | It's very easy for PCs to compare their skills and see who more consistently out preforms the others. |
Consistently outperforming requires multiple uses of the skill in different circumstances and over time. All I am saying is this isn't something the PCs can probably do in 15 minutes or a single contest. And in the real world it isn't that easy to determine who is really better than whom at many skills otherwise there would be less debate about best special forces unit, athelete, scholar, scientist, etc. Sometimes a consensus on who is better is reached. Often it is not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | I think anyone with professional skill will pull off basic maneuvers easily. Only once you do something a little trickier e.g. space transport equivalent of parallel parking can you tell the difference between say 4D and 6D. And to differentiate 6D from 9D you need a very difficult activity. |
I don't think so. The D6 system seems to have each successive D level represent approximately a doubling of power or skill. So, operating on that line of reasoning, someone with 6D skill would be four times better than someone with 4D skill. And, someone with 9D skill would be 8 times better than someone with 6D. To me, 8 times better seems like the kind of thing you can see.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I don't think so. The D6 system seems to have each successive D level represent approximately a doubling of power or skill. So, operating on that line of reasoning, someone with 6D skill would be four times better than someone with 4D skill. And, someone with 9D skill would be 8 times better than someone with 6D. To me, 8 times better seems like the kind of thing you can see. |
Each difficulty level increase tends to be 5 pts. Which is between 1D and 2D. I don't see 1D as a doubling of skill or ability. What differences do you see characters being able to detect? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | Each difficulty level increase tends to be 5 pts. Which is between 1D and 2D. I don't see 1D as a doubling of skill or ability. What differences do you see characters being able to detect? |
Well, a difficulty level doesn't seem to be a doubling to me, but if you fire link two laser cannons, they get a 1D bonus to damage. The differences would of course depend on the skill in question.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Well, a difficulty level doesn't seem to be a doubling to me, but if you fire link two laser cannons, they get a 1D bonus to damage. The differences would of course depend on the skill in question. |
OK. You got me there. I do use doubling as +1D. For combined actions I prefer powers of two. Easier math for my brain to process. That's not according to RAE however. As indicated on page 83 combined actions each 3 laser cannons (or whatever) that are combined equals +1D. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | OK. You got me there. I do use doubling as +1D. For combined actions I prefer powers of two. Easier math for my brain to process. That's not according to RAE however. As indicated on page 83 combined actions each 3 laser cannons (or whatever) that are combined equals +1D. |
I think that represents an intentional shift from 1D representing a doubling to 1 difficulty level. Or someone at WEG decided to play a subtle, yet enduring prank on us. Either way, I don't think I've ever even read all the 2R&E rules...
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think that represents an intentional shift from 1D representing a doubling to 1 difficulty level. |
That's a good point I hadn't considered. But I guess I don't really see a reason to have the combined actions and the difficulties necessarily match up.
| Quote: | | Or someone at WEG decided to play a subtle, yet enduring prank on us. Either way, I don't think I've ever even read all the 2R&E rules... |
Annoying prank. Base 2 is so much easier. Sure I memorized the powers of three up to 243, but powers of two I can go out to 4-5 digits.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Binary for the win!
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I use binary also, it works well and is easy to do in your head.
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
