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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Whill, interesting ideas. One problem with your approach is it assumes that characters will have Sense > Control > Alter. While that simplifies the system, it prohibits having a character who is a prodigy at Control or Alter, which I find limiting. But I like the way your are thinking. |
I'm sorry I wasn't very clear in what I've posted. I've been very tired and overworked lately. You can still be a prodigy at any of the skills in my proposed system. There may be some minimum values of Sense to learn Control, and both of those to learn Alter, but after gaining a skill you can focus on that one skill and leave the others behind. Thus having high values in one skill and low values on the other two. I did not mean to imply there were any prohibitions against doing that. Sorry
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | I allow teaching at any level, as long as the teacher has at least 1D more in the force skill than the pupil. I feel that an artificial set limit is a bit silly. One day you dont have a clue how to teach someone, the next day you are fully trained.. Im such a nice and easygoing GM so I allow ANYONE to teach... If you are under 3D in skill the resulting CP cost for the pupil is 1,5 times the normal cost however (to tie this to the RAW in a way).
HOWEVER...teaching pupils while at a low skill level is DANGEROUS. It involves a few rolls of the skill in question together with the Jedi Lore skill. Even if this normally dont add up to a DSP, bad dice rolls will get noted and the pupil in question might get a future penalty to resist the Will of the Dark Side wich frequently tempts my Jedis. The exact mechanics are not with me atm. REALLY bad rolls while teaching (both force skill and jedi lore gives 1:s on the wild die which end up at 0 or lower) might actually generate an immediate DSP. |
So the jedi council does not regulate this?? or do you not have one?
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Tusk BloodFlail wrote: | Ben Wrote
| Quote: | It costs 20 CPs to learn a Force Skill after character creation. We kept that for the first Force Skill learned. Then raised the cost for the second Force Skill learned to 40 CPs and to 60Cps for the third skill learned. Under this rules tweak it now costs the Brash Pilot 120 CPs (20+40+60) rather than 60 CPs to add three new Force Skills, thus bringing the cost closer to the 180 CPs the Young Jedi would need to spend to buy back her lost attributes.
So, two questions for the other GMs out there.
1) Do you see a game balance issue for characters learning Force Skills after character creation?
2a) If you do, how do you manage that balance?
2b) If you don't see a game balance issue, why do you not? |
The question of game balance has always been a very interesting question to me. In the Star Wars Universe its a simple truth that some races are simply better than others. As are some templates. Is it "balanced" that Jedi are better than stormtroopers? I can make an armored Esoomian that can take lightsaber hit after lightsaber hit from low leveled Jedi... that does not go along with anything any of use has ever seen in any of the movies, books, comics, etc. Thus game balance is an illusion at best.
1) I do not see a balance issue with it. In fact, we allow beginning characters to allocate beginning SKILL dice into force skills and allow them to keep all of their attribute dice. Since force powers operate like skills anyways.
2) I have found that Jedi need all the help they can get. Lets say in one round I want to move up to my opponent and attack him with lightsaber combat activated. That is 4 actions (move, lightsaber, lightsaber combat [2 actions]) for a total of -3D to all my actions. This is of course assuming that I am not going to dodge/deflect any attacks coming my way. So I would need at least 4D in both Control and Sense for this to even be worth while.
It is very, very easy for a Jedi to perform up to 6 to 9 actions in a single round without even trying. Just trying to deflect a single blaster bolt back at an opponent is 4 actions (lightsaber, lightsaber combat, and the attack to make the blaster bolt hit) now go ahead and move and attack someone and you are up to 6 actions for a grand total of -5D. So if players wish to learn force powers later on, I say let them. In fact you might want to kick a few extra character points their way so they live long enough to use those powers  |
This is a very good analysis of how Jedis work (or dont) in game...
I have done some things to draw back the 'raw power' of the Jedis, but instead removed many of the MAPs triggered when using force powers. I found that having high starting mechanics which then had to be constantly recalculated into penalties just added a lot of dice counting. In the end I end up with about the same number of 'effective' skill dice without all the math.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | I allow teaching at any level, as long as the teacher has at least 1D more in the force skill than the pupil. I feel that an artificial set limit is a bit silly. One day you dont have a clue how to teach someone, the next day you are fully trained.. Im such a nice and easygoing GM so I allow ANYONE to teach... If you are under 3D in skill the resulting CP cost for the pupil is 1,5 times the normal cost however (to tie this to the RAW in a way).
HOWEVER...teaching pupils while at a low skill level is DANGEROUS. It involves a few rolls of the skill in question together with the Jedi Lore skill. Even if this normally dont add up to a DSP, bad dice rolls will get noted and the pupil in question might get a future penalty to resist the Will of the Dark Side wich frequently tempts my Jedis. The exact mechanics are not with me atm. REALLY bad rolls while teaching (both force skill and jedi lore gives 1:s on the wild die which end up at 0 or lower) might actually generate an immediate DSP. |
So the jedi council does not regulate this?? or do you not have one? |
They would if I played during a time when they existed. I play just before the BoY so of course there is no Jedi Council. Even if they existed, they cannot stop every Jedi all over the galaxy to make their own decisions (if ever so foolish ones). Its still a 'stupid' artificial limit.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Do you follow the jedi code?
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Do you follow the jedi code? |
Im the GM!
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Does not answer the question. Do force using characters have to follow the code? If so, then they are still limited that way in regards to training, since by the code of the jedi order, only masters take on pupils.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 1) I do not see a balance issue with it. In fact, we allow beginning characters to allocate beginning SKILL dice into force skills and allow them to keep all of their attribute dice. Since force powers operate like skills anyways. |
Actually, allowing the Jedi to keep all starting attributes while still having force skills, makes the starting Jedi more powerful (in a general way) and would balance the discrepancy I pointed out.
Let me also point out that CP cost for learning to be a Jedi are not that high according to the rules. For a Force Sensitive character the costs are as follows.
To learn Control, Sense, or Alter to 1D is 10cp and 1 week, requires a teacher (which can be a 3D skill starting player character Jedi) total 30cps.
To increase from 1D to 2D costs 3cp with a teacher 6cp without.
To increase from 2D to 3D costs 6cp with a teacher 12cp without.
To increase from 3D to 4D costs 9cp with a teacher 18cp without.
So to go from unskilled force sensitive to Control 3D, Sense 4D, Alter 3D (which is better than a starting Jedi template allows) costs a total of 66 cps with a teacher and 102 cps without a teacher (after acquiring 1D in all three skills).
Now 66 cps is a lot. But it is also the exact same number of cps needed to go from a Brash Pilot starting character with piloting 6D, gunnery 6D, navigation 5D, and shields 5D to a character with piloting 7D, gunnery 7D, navigation 6D, and shields 6D. |
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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I thought it was 20 CP to learn a Force skill at 1D?
Or am I mixing up 2E with 2R&E?
But, yeah there is definaely an advantage to learing force skills in play. It7s a lot cheaper to raise force skills that to get those attribute dice back.
One way to address this would be to note that padawan learners are ususally younglings or adolescents and haven't finished growing. I could see saying that they are considered to have been spending the tme to train up thier stats. THey still need to still need to pay the CPs, andmake the rolls, but they could simply try to go up every 20 weeks or so rather than having to hit the gym. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Does not answer the question. Do force using characters have to follow the code? If so, then they are still limited that way in regards to training, since by the code of the jedi order, only masters take on pupils. |
There is no one telling them to...so no.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I thought it was 20 CP to learn a Force skill at 1D?
Or am I mixing up 2E with 2R&E? |
That could be. I played 2E first and I recalled it as 20cp as well, but when I looked it up in my 2R&E it said 10cps and 1 week. Now that kind of matches Luke's progression. But it seems too low cost to me.
We tend to cost it as first new force skill = 20cps, second new force skill 40cps, 3rd new force skill 60cps. But this is designed to essentially discourage characters from gaining force skills without the corresponding attribute trade offs that occur at character creation. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Bren"] | Quote: | I thought it was 20 CP to learn a Force skill at 1D?
Or am I mixing up 2E with 2R&E? |
That could be. I played 2E first and I recalled it as 20cp as well, but when I looked it up in my 2R&E it said 10cps and 1 week. Now that kind of matches Luke's progression. But it seems too low cost to me.
THe 20 pt hit to become force sensitve is also there, although PCs can opt to start force sensitive.
Many of my players have found out the hard way that it isn't a good idea to make some characters force senstive. THe force senstive pirate was practically a foregone conclusion. |
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Many of my players have found out the hard way that it isn't a good idea to make some characters force senstive. THe force senstive pirate was practically a foregone conclusion. |
I play force sensitive if I want to be the nice guy, classic pulp hero. If I want edgy, or antihero I play not force sensitive.
Luke = Force Sensitive
Leia = yep, probably her too
Han = nope. That's why he shot and Greedo didn't. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Actually, allowing the Jedi to keep all starting attributes while still having force skills, makes the starting Jedi more powerful (in a general way) and would balance the discrepancy I pointed out. |
A starting Jedi in my games has to put at least 1 ability die into one force skill. After that they can put both skill and/or ability dice (in all force skills).
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A starting Jedi in my games has to put at least 1 ability die into one force skill. After that they can put both skill and/or ability dice (in all force skills). |
That might be a good compromise. Thanks. |
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