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garhkal
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 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:12 am Post subject: |
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So what would one be statted out like?
NO primary hyperdrive (no space), also likely no back up.
2-4 space speed
Low hull
No to low shields
One weapon (say a missile/torp launcher, with only 2-3 reloads).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | So what would one be statted out like?
NO primary hyperdrive (no space), also likely no back up.
2-4 space speed
Low hull
No to low shields
One weapon (say a missile/torp launcher, with only 2-3 reloads). |
Pretty much this. I figure the launchers can deploy torpedoes or space mines, or it can forego reloads to carry space frogmen or something.
EDIT: I might allow a hyperdrive in the x10 or x12 range, so it could make short range jumps into a system from somewhere within a lightyear or so, but not enough to make anything but the shortest interstellar hops.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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What would its consumables be?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | What would its consumables be? |
A couple weeks, at most. Actual midget subs were notoriously short ranged, and were dependent on motherships for transport and logistics.
Here's the Wikipedia article on midget submarines if you're looking for more detail.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10451
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | I know it's part of the canon that cloaking devices can't be fitted on Starfighter-Scale ships ("no ship that small has a cloaking device", after all), but as part of my Cloaked-Ships-As-Submarines concept, I've long wanted to incorporate WW2-era midget submarines. Unfortunately, because of the clear size limit indicated in the films, I've been somewhat stymied. However, I think I've come up with a solution.
My headcanon for allowing the Skipray and the Gamma to be Frigate-Scale involves their power plant, in that ships Frigate-Scale and larger use hypermatter reactors, while Walkers and Starships use fusion reactors. The Gamma and Skipray make major design compromises in order to fit compact hypermatter reactors, thus giving them the power output needed to function at the capital ship level.
What I'm thinking is applying the same thing to a cloaked "midget sub", that the cloaking device draws too much power to be run off a fusion plant, and thus can only be installed on ships with a hypermatter reactor. However, because so much of the ship's volume is taken up by the cloaking device and the reactor, very little is left over for other systems, such as hyperdrives (historically, midget subs had such short range that they had to be piggybacked to their targets, either by larger subs or by merchant auxiliaries), weapons (midget subs were generally only equipped with a couple torpedoes, or one or two mines that could be deployed under a target vessel's keel while at anchor) or passengers (enough room for 2-4 crew and passengers). They'd also be quite slow, unmaneuverable and fragile, all in trade for being extremely stealthy.
Yes, it's technically "anti-canon", as a ship this small shouldn't be able to have a cloaking device, but it does fit as part of Star Wars' larger "World War II in Space" theme, as well as with my overall headcanon.
Thoughts? |
Sure. I wouldn't put much stock in Captain Needa's film line. Darth Maul's Scimitar and the Emperor's personal Lambda-class shuttle have cloaking devices, and they are both less massive than the Falcon. It could simply be that Captain Needa doesn't have the clearance level to know about small-ship clocking devices. As long as they are rare, I don't think it upsets canon at all.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Sure. I wouldn't put much stock in Captain Needa's film line. Darth Maul's Scimitar and the Emperor's personal Lambda-class shuttle have cloaking devices, and they are both less massive than the Falcon. It could simply be that Captain Needa doesn't have the clearance level to know about small-ship clocking devices. As long as they are rare, I don't think it upsets canon at all. |
I'm picturing those as a separate, much rarer advanced type of cloaking device that is only single blind (as in, those inside the cloak can see out). It would fit if Needa didn't know such a thing existed, while still knowing about the technical limitations of more conventional double-blind cloak. At the moment, I'm picturing the "midget cloak" ship in the 40-to-50-meter length range, putting it several times the mass of a ship like the Falcon. That way, Needa's line can still apply, but the threshold for "too small" isn't that much bigger than the Falcon, especially once one factors in its performance.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Sure. I wouldn't put much stock in Captain Needa's film line. Darth Maul's Scimitar and the Emperor's personal Lambda-class shuttle have cloaking devices, and they are both less massive than the Falcon. It could simply be that Captain Needa doesn't have the clearance level to know about small-ship clocking devices. As long as they are rare, I don't think it upsets canon at all. |
I'm picturing those as a separate, much rarer advanced type of cloaking device that is only single blind (as in, those inside the cloak can see out). It would fit if Needa didn't know such a thing existed, while still knowing about the technical limitations of more conventional double-blind cloak. At the moment, I'm picturing the "midget cloak" ship in the 40-to-50-meter length range, putting it several times the mass of a ship like the Falcon. That way, Needa's line can still apply, but the threshold for "too small" isn't that much bigger than the Falcon, especially once one factors in its performance. |
I find Needa's quote to indicate of his knowledge of the known tech.
Even though he was of significan rank there is nothing to indicate that he would know that the Emperor's Lamda had a cloaking device.
Nor would he reasonably have any knowledge whatsoever of the scimirar, though he may have some possible knowldge of the existence of a stealth program from the carrion spike, which was a republic project.
Now I would argue that with the existing tech, and what we know about the more secret tech, I would say it is more plausable with a less than 150m stealth ship than anything above this.
if we look at the scimitar, it is not that large, and it usues the stygium crystal technology, and this was an experimental /prototype thing
making me think that this along with other later imperial program revolves around this "space submarine" aspect, with the beginning being the variusl TIE experiments, with the furthering of the vessel size by modernizing and maybe to a degree upgradin the technology from scimitar to allow for the lambda, and we can then only speculate that they would work on the carrion spike and similar tech, resulting in a stealth ship of any size up to and including a corvette at +/- 150 M
Looking at tech on earth we had graphical displays in the starfighter cockpits even in ww2 as a standard, we had the beginning of computer aided warfare between korea and vietnam, we have developed and modernized technology, downzied things as well, and we have developed microchips, and nano chips and more to make things smaller and smaller, so to me it seems if we apply this , we can go and we have seen us go both ways, invention for a car has become standards on trucks and busses, so we do scale up technology as well, esp ially military, where if you can make a small armored vehicle you can make a larger one etc....
and we sually start small, with the new tech like stealth flight, we have yet to know about any stealth plane on earth of any significan size, and the the stealh bomber the B2 is not that large, if we compare this to a B-52 or even a B 1
so I would argue that perhaps the statement came of a lack of knowing about smaller ship stealth systems being "common enough" and not knowing anything about any such reacherch and thus limiting the scop, I would think is easier to makea stealth corvette than a stealth seadh star, and we can draw that to a starfighter or gunboat ala falcon size or a destroyer, the latter seemingly harder to cloak if any.
So I think the argument should be the max size really, and the suggested or mentioned 40-50 meter I think is plausable and making a rare tech, outside that you can fit a claoking device if you find one to your ship and have some measures of stealth.
We can also look at what is the stealth in question, how much is "window visiblity" a thing for ships and the flying, when we talk sizes.
we have sensor masks that both distort the ship signature, changes the type or size if you will, we have systems that are passive and active, like the various "paint coatings"
and we have the systems like the sytgium which also reduces enemy firecontrol.
Most of the stealth ship can not use weapons or do much really when claoked, however the concept of a sumbreine IMO is to allow this, and I would for the simplest way allow a ship to have something like a cannon, be it a turnolaser or a blaser cannon, or a launcher for missiles and or torpedos, to have no fire control, to be a weapon that is operated manually, maybe with the artilley skill, but becuse it is not connected to any ships system like firecontrol and the like it can be fired while cloaked, though with natural limits to number of shots etc.....
I can see a 2 missile launcher with no firecontrol, possibly a "homing" missile that can be fored while cloaked, either both shots at once or a total of two shots, before a reload, limiteing the OP factor |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm picturing those as a separate, much rarer advanced type of cloaking device that is only single blind (as in, those inside the cloak can see out). It would fit if Needa didn't know such a thing existed, while still knowing about the technical limitations of more conventional double-blind cloak. At the moment, I'm picturing the "midget cloak" ship in the 40-to-50-meter length range, putting it several times the mass of a ship like the Falcon. That way, Needa's line can still apply, but the threshold for "too small" isn't that much bigger than the Falcon, especially once one factors in its performance. |
Wouldn't single-blind be more advanced and need more space? Or is size-reduction an additional advancement on top of single-blindness?
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Actual midget subs were notoriously short ranged, and were dependent on motherships for transport and logistics.
Here's the Wikipedia article on midget submarines if you're looking for more detail. |
I've actually been in a retired mini-sub (underwater but connected to a structure). It was much smaller than the Falcon, only big enough for 2-3 small people. Very claustrophobia-inducing, and plenty of painful metal to bump your head on. I rather hated it and never want to do that again!
And while it is vaguely on topic, here is a Star Wars mini-sub I designed.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Wouldn't single-blind be more advanced and need more space? Or is size-reduction an additional advancement on top of single-blindness? |
Per Legends canon, there are two different kinds of cloaks, differentiated by the material needed to produce the effects: stygium crystals and hibridium ore. As I understand it, a stygium cloak (which was fitted to the Scimitar and, presumably, Palpatine's shuttle) was much more difficult to manufacture (on account of the rarity of stygium crystals), but generated a single-blind effect, and could be fitted to much smaller craft. Hibridium cloaks were easier to manufacture (relative to stygium cloaks, at least), but were large, power intensive and created a double-blind effect.
tl;dr, there are two different kinds of cloaking devices, one of which is basically a Trek-style cloak but exceedingly rare and expensive, and the other is the double-blind cloak described in WEG material.
I'm focusing exclusively on the latter type, because it more closely parallels the premise of this topic, using the double-blind effect to create a "submarines in space" theme. AFAIC, the stygium cloaks are more akin to super-stealth aircraft, not submarines, and have no real bearing on what I'm trying to do here.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I've actually been in a retired mini-sub (underwater but connected to a structure). It was much smaller than the Falcon, only big enough for 2-3 small people. Very claustrophobia-inducing, and plenty of painful metal to bump your head on. I rather hated it and never want to do that again! |
I can only imagine. I'm a big guy, and I doubt I'd cope well with being in such confined space. That's the feel I'm going for, of a cramped box in space whose only real advantage is being practically invisible, and really on useful for covert operations or suicide missions (think the Japanese midget subs at Pearl Harbor, or the Italians frogmen at Alexandria).
Very cool. Speaking of, have you read up on the underwater processing facility in Hideouts & Strongholds? I'd be surprised if you hadn't, but I'd also be very disappointed in myself if you'd missed it somehow.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:49 am Post subject: |
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I always thought maul's scimitar had a stealth device like cloak, NOT a proper on 'cloaking device'..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I always thought maul's scimitar had a stealth device like cloak, NOT a proper on 'cloaking device'.. |
Nope. As far back as the Cross Section book for Phantom Menace, it had a cloaking device. Of course, it functioned quite differently from cloaks as described by WEG, so the only way to resolve it was to make two different kinds.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | ...there are two different kinds of cloaking devices, one of which is basically a Trek-style cloak but exceedingly rare and expensive, and the other is the double-blind cloak described in WEG material. |
OK, so the added expense takes into account both the added utility and reduced size. I'd say the smaller-than-Falcon, single-blind cloaking devices should be very expensive.
| CRMcNeill wrote: |
Very cool. Speaking of, have you read up on the underwater processing facility in Hideouts & Strongholds? I'd be surprised if you hadn't, but I'd also be very disappointed in myself if you'd missed it somehow. |
The underwater food processing plant? Yeah. What about it?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | OK, so the added expense takes into account both the added utility and reduced size. I'd say the smaller-than-Falcon, single-blind cloaking devices should be very expensive. |
Absolutely, as in, basically only available to Palpatine and a select few of his agents.
| Quote: | | The underwater food processing plant? Yeah. What about it? |
It just made me think that with your redesign of the Deepwater / MC-13, plus the submersible you just posted, it'd be a great setting for taking your new toys for a spin.
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