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The Clone Wars before the prequels
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groda
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2024 1:30 pm    Post subject: The Clone Wars before the prequels Reply with quote

Hey all,

I was wondering if WEG ever did anything dealing with this time. I have some ideas about the Clone Wars from the perspective of OT canon. Just looking for further content. Here is my version of the Clone Wars era (basically just loose assumptions):

1. The events loosely correspond to our own timeline. If we begin with Star Wars in 1977 and pin that to The Battle of Yavin, we then have a timeline for the events and feel for those conflicts. That is, WWI begins in 1914 and WWII ends in 1946. The Clone Wars end 31 years (1977-1946) BBY; and they start 63 years BBY (1977-1914). This seems consistent with how GL saw the relation between these conflicts. It also gives us some ideas about the Clone Wars.,

2. Based on the above, we have a 30+ year conflict, with the intensity of the conflict being uneven. It starts with brutality, then settles into a stalemate; followed by a tense peace before an ultimate destructive war.

3. As mentioned many times on this forum, I think the original Clone Wars era was also a series of conflicts, at first between various sectors in the Expansion region and Mid Rim; then eventually drawing in the Republic, Jedi, and Mandalore. The Cloning tech, much like AI in our own world, begins largely unregulated and somewhat benign. Clones are used for hard labor, then security forces, then mercenary forces. So, the first phase of the war involves Barons trying to expand their holdings, then frantically making alliances, which then leads to broader conflicts. This all being an unintended consequence of a new technology.

4. Mandalore was a society of powerful warriors who often, like the crusades or ancient mercenary companies, kept the peace outside of the Republic territories, not due to their benevolence, but due to their relative military strength combined with their non-imperial (warrior honor maybe) intentions. That is, there was always the threat that someone paid the Mandalorians to settle a conflict, and they were honor bound to fight on only one side.

5. Well, with 4 being true, the emergence of Clone Armies would greatly disrupt this equilibrium, causing Mandalore to oppose large Clone Armies and the alliances of powerful barons. I think this is the escalation of the second phase of the Clone Wars, Mandalore taking it upon it self to destroy the Clone Barons one by one. The Republic (and/or Jedi) eventually enters to protect its members from Mandalore and likely the Clone barons.

I have other ideas about the Cloning, Spacers, and Banking Guilds involvement, but I can save those if people are interested.

How does this square with your ideas about this era? Did WEG ever write anything relevant to the "original" Clone Wars?

Best,
Groda
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what little we heard in the OT, and novels BEFORE ep 1-3, i always thought the Clone wars were a GOOD 2-3 decades BEFORE the events of ANH, not barely 17 years. AND that the clones were the BAD GUYS, not fighting for the galactic republic.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:05 am    Post subject: Re: The Clone Wars before the prequels Reply with quote

Welcome, groda! That is an epic time between registering for the site and first post!

Fall of the Republic as per WEG Star Wars

This is the only fairly recent thread I could find that touched on what you are going for. I was thinking there was an older thread but I'm tired and haven't found it yet. Sorry I couldn't help more at the moment.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of that either did not exist - or was very different based upon the assumptions they made at the time.

I did a lot of work in two campaigns about the clone wars and the period leading up to it - and one book that was useful was the FFG Rise of the Separatists and another was a book - Collapse of the Republic.

Regardless of some small examples of game mechanics - I found these to be really helpful in working in those eras.


Best of luck in your game.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1998 Official Star Wars Souvenir Manuel gives the following dates:

35 BSW4* End of the Clone Wars
29 BSW4 Palpatine becomes President of the Republic
18 BSW4 Empire is formed; birth of Darth Vader; birth of Luke and Leia

*BSW4 means ‘Before Star Wars 4’ (similar to BBY)

So, as of 1998, the Clone Wars were 35 years before "Star Wars".
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All,

Thanks for responding. I hope this didn't come off as Prequel bashing. I had just imagined a very different story in my mind for so many years, the prequels almost "rewrote" Star Wars for me (even though I understand that was partly the intent GL was going for). It is just a project I've always wanted to complete: reconstructing the version I imagined as a kid with the logic skills of an adult.

Quote:
i always thought the Clone wars were a GOOD 2-3 decades BEFORE the events of ANH, not barely 17 years. AND that the clones were the BAD GUYS, not fighting for the galactic republic.


Yes, this was the core assumption I made as well. Amazing how the mind fills in these narrative details based on the scant information we were given.

Quote:
Welcome, groda! That is an epic time between registering for the site and first post!

Fall of the Republic as per WEG Star Wars

This is the only fairly recent thread I could find that touched on what you are going for. I was thinking there was an older thread but I'm tired and haven't found it yet. Sorry I couldn't help more at the moment.


Whill, thank you for the warm welcome and the resource. This is exactly what I was looking for actually and a good place to start i.e., the first edition materials. Also, I've been reading this forum on and off for years, but only recently have I gotten into running SW d6 intensely (mostly prepping for a campaign).

Quote:
I did a lot of work in two campaigns about the clone wars and the period leading up to it - and one book that was useful was the FFG Rise of the Separatists and another was a book - Collapse of the Republic.


Interesting. I want to hear more about your campaign and how you used these resources. Did you stray much from the prequel story? Was it a rewarding campaign?

Quote:
1998 Official Star Wars Souvenir Manuel gives the following dates:

35 BSW4* End of the Clone Wars
29 BSW4 Palpatine becomes President of the Republic
18 BSW4 Empire is formed; birth of Darth Vader; birth of Luke and Leia

*BSW4 means ‘Before Star Wars 4’ (similar to BBY)

So, as of 1998, the Clone Wars were 35 years before "Star Wars".


Excellent. So, I am actually not far off (31 years). I do think GL thought in terms of the world in 1977 and thus in relation to the two World Wars, it just makes sense even if it wasn't intentional.

Currently I am preparing for a short campaign (maybe) at the beginning of the conflict. Where various Baronies in the Expansion Region are attempting to grab power using clone armies, and then eventually creating powerfully binding alliances that throw the Galaxy outside the Republic into a huge inter system conflict.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always was a little off with the actual tiemline, however the clones WERE the badguys.

yes at a time they fought FOR the republic, but when the same republic became the empire the fist soldiers were clones, and now they fought AGAINST the the ideals of the "fallen" republic and fought FOR the ideals of the "new" empire.

To me the timeline was 2 - 3 decades, with what I assumed was the conflict leading up to the actual clonewars and that the clone war DID CONTINUE under the empire, though renamed with the various "campaigns"

So I belive we should look at this as yes both, but not at the same time.

When did the clone wars start and when did it actually end.....
It BEgan when the INITIAL conflict began, meaning many decades before ANH with the establishemnet of CIS and then the subsequent conflict of this, in which the Clone wars was a "phase".

WW2 fighting began in 1940, the war began in 1938, and we can even argue it began earlier....with the annecxations done by Garmany at the time.

Back to the galaxy far far away, we have the same, a "war" thaty is cold, and then develops as it did in our world, with the blockade and attack on naboo, and from there 3 years of war with the republic and CIS only to be transitioned without the war ending into a war against the CIS and the "new" Empire, which the latter won. and wich in turn turend the previosu bad guy CIS into the victim and heroes
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC, Lucas explicitly forbade WEG from exploring or fleshing ou the Clone Wars, likely with an eye toward eventually doing the prequels

As far as an alternate timeline, I’ve always thought the Mesan Alignment from the Honor Harrington series makes for a great crossover Clone Wars concept.

In a nutshell, the Mesans front as a collection of galaxy-wide corporations, in particular one called Manpower, which produces genetically tailored clones (slaves) for specific purposes, which in turn is used as a front for developing human bio-ware enhancement techniques. They’re also hugely embedded in the galactic government insofar as bribing and manipulating political and military figures. At its core, however, is a plan to overthrow the galactic government and replace it with themselves at the top. To that end, they use their influence to start proxy wars and the like.

It’s way more detailed and complicated than that, but the series is worth the read if you’re looking for crossover fodder.

EDIT: Link: Article from the Honor Harrington Wiki
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

groda wrote:


Yes, this was the core assumption I made as well. Amazing how the mind fills in these narrative details based on the scant information we were given.


Well, based on the novels, especially Zahn's trilogy, it does seem like most folk don't Remember the clone wars as being that recent, which to me means a good 30+ years, but they HATE clones because of it.. BUT IF THEY FOUGHT for the "Good guys" (the republic), why would they hate them??
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the timing - yeah, the game designers only had so much to go on.

That and we all have to remember lucas was a story teller first - designer of a consistent universe .....well.... not even second. Wink

Personally - I think his obvious motivation for placing the clone wars so close to the empire was that he wanted the big moment to be with Order 66, the clones going from the defenders of the republic and working with the Jedi - to one of the instruments of their destruction.

Anyway...we each work on what makes sense for our game....

groda wrote:
Hi All,

Quote:
I did a lot of work in two campaigns about the clone wars and the period leading up to it - and one book that was useful was the FFG Rise of the Separatists and another was a book - Collapse of the Republic.


Interesting. I want to hear more about your campaign and how you used these resources. Did you stray much from the prequel story? Was it a rewarding campaign?


First campaign
Was a while ago - and was right before and during the Clone wars.
My group did not want another game set in the rebellion era (fun - but did that a few times already) but wanted something somewhat familiar (the prequels had recently finished).

They were a group of freelancers with different skills who worked with a Paramilitary corp based out of Corellia (I did a lot of research into real paramilitary outfits - aka - business mercenaries - they are .....fascinating and terrifying at the same time).
The occasionally did missions with the Jedi - for the things that needed to be done - but the Jedi Council did not want to get their hands or robes dirty for...(such as Clone Wars S5E5: Tipping Points) or just needing more logistics or other support.

It went really well - and worked in many elements about how the republic was indeed growing corrupt over time etc. In our session zero we established that the party did not want to change any major events too much, but did not mind many of them being a backdrop to adventures.

One example adventure was when the Jedi sent help to Geonosis - The party was along as an escort with the ships transporting Mace Windu and the other jedi to rescue Obi-wan and Anakin etc. I added a space combat approaching the planet (droid patrols etc.) and them almost getting taken out by planetary defenses - they split up - the Jedi headed to the arena to rescue obi-wan, and the party went to a defense command center to take out planetary sensors and defenses - so master yoda's reinforcements would not be shot down.... The party liked it - as they got to play a key part in an existing narrative.

The Second Game
Our current game - my group is all force users who survived order 66 - so we did a narrative background session (think - a scripted Fiasco game) - based on events leading up to the clone wars. It was multiple encounters spread out to link the party members with each other and different NPCs and locations that would later be important in the campaign.

it went really well -as I played certain scenes from the Clone Wars animated series for the backdrop for some of the sessions - and had the party decide on their parts in surrounding events (for example - they were at the battle of mandalore with bo katan and ahsoka....but doing different things).

It got a bit complicated here and there - as one character was a separatist (who later got disillusioned with both them and the republic) and another was a smuggler with blacksun...

Anway - the clone wars is a great time period to adventure - you have a large scale conflict if you need missions against a powerful government - but also lots of room for outlaws and independents.

I hope some of this was either useful or at least entertaining...
best of luck in your game.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many were in that "we are all jedi who escaped order 66" game?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2024 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

groda wrote:
Currently I am preparing for a short campaign (maybe) at the beginning of the conflict. Where various Baronies in the Expansion Region are attempting to grab power using clone armies, and then eventually creating powerfully binding alliances that throw the Galaxy outside the Republic into a huge inter system conflict.

Alternate histories can be great. Do whatever works for you and your group.

Quote:
I hope this didn't come off as Prequel bashing.

You didn't. And thanks for that.

Quote:
I had just imagined a very different story in my mind for so many years, the prequels almost "rewrote" Star Wars for me (even though I understand that was partly the intent GL was going for).

I disagree that Lucas had any intent for the PT to "rewrite" Star Wars. The story certainly evolved over time, but I don't think Lucas intentionally set out to change the backstory.

TESB introduced the retcon of Vader being Anakin. RotJ killed off the Emperor (as opposed to him not even appearing until a third trilogy) and made Leia the long-lost sister (as opposed to eventually introducing a new character in a third trilogy), to wrap up the story. These evolutions happened in the time of the CT, and they were more radical than later changes made to the backstory.

It is clear that before the PT was made, the original intention was for the Clone Wars to be set further back in time, around 35 years before ANH. But the Clone Wars were originally not that important to the story. For the ANH screenplay, Lucas literally just needed a past conflict that Obi-Wan and Anakin had fought in and gave it a "sci-fi"-sounding name. Which side the clones were on didn't matter to ANH or the CT as a whole. What the sides were didn't matter, but it was always just assumed that one side was the Republic was because the Jedi Knights were the guardians of the Republic and fought in the conflict.

When Lucas sat down in the mid-90s to plot out the PT, he made some overarching decisions for the sake of the story. Some things that worked fine as backstory needed tweaked to make them into their own story, such as character ages. Anakin was made younger so that his life could have the symmetry of half on the light side and half on the dark side (a literary balance), and having him as a child allowed for the separation anxiety aspect his fall to the Dark Side. This required the Clone Wars to be moved forward in the timeline for the dialogue of Anakin serving with Obi-Wan in the conflict to make sense. Padme was likely originally a lot younger than Anakin, but the needs of the PT plot made her four years older. Lucas' basic outline was Episode I being a reworking of a rough draft of the original Star Wars, II being the start of the Clone War, and III being the end of the Clone War, the fall of Anakin, the transformation of the Republic into the Empire, and the birth of the twins.

Interviews from 1977 prove that Midi-chlorians existed back then (by name even) and that Threepio was originally conceived as having been constructed by a slave boy who worked in an outer rim junkyard. A lot of aspects of the PT existed from the very beginning but were simply unrevealed. The established backstory had details added and evolved as it was written into a story, such as the sensible cinematic choice of having Padme die in the Episode III instead of dying offscreen a couples years later just so Leia would remember her. The suggestion that Lucas was motivated to change things just for the sake of change is unfounded and nearsighted.

garhkal wrote:
AND that the clones were the BAD GUYS, not fighting for the galactic republic.

There are a couple major problems with the belief that clones were intended to be the "bad guys" (enemies of the Republic).

I have an official Star Wars publication dated 1978 that clearly identifies all stormtroopers as clones. No, not clones of the same person as the Republic army was in the PT, but they were multiple groups of clones – There would have to have been multiple varied stormtrooper hosts to account for the varying heights and voices. The article even refers to a previous failure at growing clones as fully formed adults, so they had to resort to raising/training clones from small children. It was also established back then that the Empire rose from the Republic. So for me, it was a no-brainer that the Republic had clones in the conflict.

The enemy of the Republic having clones may have been a common fanboy theory but it seems to have been further popularized by Zahn. WEG, Zahn, etc. had a long list of things they couldn't deal with to preserve some aspect of mystery for the PT (for example, stormtrooper faces were never allowed to be shown or described), but it seems clear that Lucas also intentionally let the EU go off on its tangents when it got things wrong on their own, for the same purpose of preserving mystery. A lot of people thinking clones were the enemies of the Republic doesn't mean Lucas changed it.

And it baffles me that 19 years after RotS, many fans still don't realize that the clonetroopers were "bad guys". They literally massacred the Jedi Order, including children! The Republic was not the "good guys" in the clone war. The Republic was lead by the Sith Master. Both sides of the conflict were "bad." There was no good side in the clone war, a completely fabricated conflict manufactured to eliminate the Jedi, the only thing preventing the Republic from turning into an evil, Sith-lead dictatorship.

Quote:
BUT IF THEY FOUGHT for the "Good guys" (the republic), why would they hate them??

See above for the Republic/good guy error...

Zahn didn't know that the clones would be on the side of the Republic in the PT, and Lucas allowed the EU to be incorrect about some things to preserve some element of surprise for the films. Lucas was not beholden to use "Coruscant" for the name of the galactic capital planet, but he chose to because the name he already had didn't have any special story meaning so it didn't really matter. (Zahn is quoted as saying that was putting the cart before the horse.) Lucas' version of the clone wars was not beholden to what Zahn had written about it years earlier.

Also, in light of the PT, the clones were bad guys that massacred the Jedi, so that would still be a reason for galactic citizens to hate them.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2024 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
How many were in that "we are all jedi who escaped order 66" game?


Five Players - all force users - which was their request when we had our session zero - and wanted to be in the early/mid days of the imperial era. We also discussed campaign goals, canon stuff etc. And then I met with each of them to discuss character concepts etc., and then worked on the overall campaign story arc, did clone wars research - and we started with semi-narrative background sessions set in the clone wars.

We have;
A faleen ex-jedi-student - was kicked out of the academy at Almas early in the clone wars - had a problem with authority figures...
A shard - 200 year old force sensitive crystalline lifeform, who was studying to be a jedi at the time of the clone wars.
A rodian jedi pilot - worked at kamino as a clone flight instructor.
A Cordi-ju Jedi - was padawan in many clone wars battles - including the battle of mandalore.
A Human, former padawan of count-dooku - left the order with him but later abandoned him during early clone wars as while disillusioned with the republic - quickly felt that dooku was going too far ...
(there was a sixth player, but he had to drop due to life changes - but we put his character in some of the narrative background - in case he can ever play in the future).


Their backgrounds were a mix of a variety of events from star wars lore - that would bring the various individuals together every year or so over a 10 year background period - these were all set on places or with NPCs that would later be used in the long term campaign.

All of them being force users (this part as decided a long time before we started the game) was one of the primary drivers for me to overhaul the force power system, which is really almost a new edition with all our house rules...

All of us were fans of the animated series Clone Wars and Rebels - so we had a lot fun having backgrounds inspired by those events, and then later (once the actual campaign started) adventuring during the early years before the rebellion was more than just isolated groups.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: The Clone Wars before the prequels Reply with quote

groda wrote:
Quote:
Welcome, groda! That is an epic time between registering for the site and first post!

Fall of the Republic as per WEG Star Wars

This is the only fairly recent thread I could find that touched on what you are going for. I was thinking there was an older thread but I'm tired and haven't found it yet. Sorry I couldn't help more at the moment.

Whill, thank you for the warm welcome and the resource. This is exactly what I was looking for actually and a good place to start i.e., the first edition materials.

The thread below is the one I was originally thinking of and looking for. Sorry for the delay in finding it.

The ORIGINAL Clone Wars
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2024 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:

All of them being force users (this part as decided a long time before we started the game) was one of the primary drivers for me to overhaul the force power system, which is really almost a new edition with all our house rules...

All of us were fans of the animated series Clone Wars and Rebels - so we had a lot fun having backgrounds inspired by those events, and then later (once the actual campaign started) adventuring during the early years before the rebellion was more than just isolated groups.


Thanks for the run down. Makes me wonder, what were their starting levels in force d??
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