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Kytross Line Captain
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 782
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:37 pm Post subject: Learned Skills |
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Okay, I'd love to hear what you guys think abut this.
There are skills that aren't really advanced skills, but really shouldn't be rolled at the attribute without training. Skills that the average person doesn't have. Piloting comes to mind. Normally when I'm GMing I just hit characters with a negative modifier if they're using a skill I consider something they need training on and they have no experience.
For instance, if you've never driven a car or flown a plane (speeder, starship) I give your character a negative 5 or 10 point modifier.
Instead of that I'm considering making those skills I consider Learned Skills start at 1D irregardless of the attribute. That way the player knows exactly where they stand.
This rule would not change how starting dice are assigned. If a player has improved a learned skill with their starting dice then they've clearly trained in that skill.
A list of possible learned skills:
Piloting
Astrogation
Investigation
Demolition
Scholar
Swimming
I'll take suggestions on other skills as well. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14212 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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I've asked this in the past, in threads like my "skill roll, without the skill' thread, many moons back... _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10434 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Learned Skills |
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garhkal wrote: | I've asked this in the past, in threads like my "skill roll, without the skill' thread, many moons back... |
Skills defaulting to attributes is a perennial discussion here. Kytross has been a member here for slightly longer than I have, so he could have also been involved in them.
Kytross wrote: | There are skills that aren't really advanced skills, but really shouldn't be rolled at the attribute without training. Skills that the average person doesn't have. Piloting comes to mind. Normally when I'm GMing I just hit characters with a negative modifier if they're using a skill I consider something they need training on and they have no experience.
For instance, if you've never driven a car or flown a plane (speeder, starship) I give your character a negative 5 or 10 point modifier.
Instead of that I'm considering making those skills I consider Learned Skills start at 1D irregardless of the attribute. That way the player knows exactly where they stand.
This rule would not change how starting dice are assigned. If a player has improved a learned skill with their starting dice then they've clearly trained in that skill. |
Just for clarification, you seem to be possibly be talking about two different things (or perhaps both of them).
If by training you refer only to skill value raised above the attribute, than that is like the unskilled penalty option in D6 Space. Strictly applied, that would mean that no matter how many times you've done something unskilled, even successfully despite the penalty, the penalty keeps applying to the skill attempts until the skill is actually raised.
But the "if you've never" done something clause would seem to mean that the unskilled the penalty applies only the very first time you do something. Then after after the first attempt (or perhaps even after the first successful unskilled use), you can start defaulting to the attribute.
I'm somewhere in between.
I don't like the strict ongoing unskilled penalty for a couple reasons. I accept (non-advanced) skills defaulting to attribute as one of the key premises of the game system itself. Undoing it feels like undermining the game design. While skill values certainly can and do include formal training, skill values primarily represent experience as designed in the game. (Training includes increasing experience applicable to the skill, even if gained in a controlled/lab setting.) All you have to do to improve a skill in the game system is to use it successfully in an adventure – "training" is only required if the skill wasn't used successfully. This game takes place in a cinematic reality; The game system was not intended to be a realistic simulation of actual reality. This isn't anything even close to the Matrix. And if using skills unskilled always had a penalty until the skill is improved, then there never is a situation where a character functionally has a skill at attribute level. It would either be only lower or higher than attribute, which feels a bit wasteful.
However, I do agree that all skills should not default to attributes the first time the character ever attempts to do it, or even the first few times. So I have an unfamiliarity penalty. When it makes sense, I'll apply a small temporary unfamiliarity penalty for unskilled skill use. When it seems reasonable that the character has gained the basic familiarity with the action, then the pure attribute defaulting starts even if the skill is never improved. (A skill being improved even a single pip completely eliminates any unfamiliarly penalty considerations.)
Quote: | ...A list of possible learned skills:
Piloting
Astrogation
Investigation
Demolition
Scholar
Swimming
I'll take suggestions on other skills as well. |
All of those are good suggestions for my unfamiliarity penalty consideration except one: scholar. That skill is one key exception because it is not a representation of experience – It is mainly academic knowledge. And Knowledge in general is memory. I don't have an issue with a character attempting (without penalty) to remember something learned in his high school biology class that might be useful in a situation. People remember all kinds of random facts that a lot of other people don't, and this is a cinematic reality so unscholarly characters can uncharacteristically recall something academic on occasion. Scholar was mainly added to the game to more realistically represent certain character backgrounds. It has extremely limited usefulness in the game, and most PCs don't have more than 3D in the Knowledge. I have never had the experience of unpenalized scholar rolls ever making my game seem unrealistic to me, even with a few wild die explosions.
With respect to astrogation, I go a step further than applying an unskilled penalty by making it an advanced skill (I have navigation as a normal skill). By definition, advanced skills do not default to attribute. Either uses of the skill can't be attempted at all, or they can at high difficulty with base skills (like attempting to use a bacta tank with only first aid). I make attempting to astrogate without the skill the same difficulty as astrogating without a navicomputer, but the mundane navigation skill must be used. I have made a handful of normal skills into advanced skills.
I've never felt a need to list the normal skills that the unfamiliarity penalty applies to because I just apply my judgement in play (all players are told about the rule during char gen). I base it on the character's background. If a character grew up on a desert planet and they have never seen a body of water larger than a moisture vaporator, then they very likely would have the penalty the first time they ever try to swim. _________________ *
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pakman Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021 Posts: 441
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Have seen this topic over the years....
I use a very simple mechanic for this (as part of my houserules and skill overhaul) but it works here.
Some definitions:
Untrained - a skill a character has not improved.
Disadvantage - rolling a check twice, and taking the lower result.
Advantage - Rolling a check twice, and taking the higher result.
Complex Skill - a skill that if used Untrained, is rolled at Disadvantage.
Piloting, Demolitions, Forgery, First Aid, Navigation, Repair,-Tech, Repair - Weapons, Security.
(your specific skills may be different - as many others have, my skill list has been consolidated and reduced - but you get the idea).
Been using it for almost two years in an active game - works well.
(I use the concept of advantage and disadvantage for certain types of modifiers where I felt a +/-D was not relative). _________________ SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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ThrorII Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jul 2019 Posts: 203
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2023 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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"....and with that, Luke crashed his X-wing into the Death Star, dying horribly. Because a T-16 really isn't like a starfighter afterall."
While training and untrained skills are a thing for some games, Star Wars really isn't one of them, in my opinion. The concept that EVERYONE can fly a starship at least at their base Mechanical attribute level is VERY Star-Warsy. _________________ "The internet is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural." - Sheev Zuckerberg |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10434 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Right. Spaceship technology is ubiquitous in the Empire, but probably not as much as repulsorlift tech.
pakman wrote: | I use a very simple mechanic for this (as part of my houserules and skill overhaul) but it works here.
Some definitions:
Untrained - a skill a character has not improved.
Disadvantage - rolling a check twice, and taking the lower result.
Advantage - Rolling a check twice, and taking the higher result.
Complex Skill - a skill that if used Untrained, is rolled at Disadvantage.
Piloting, Demolitions, Forgery, First Aid, Navigation, Repair,-Tech, Repair - Weapons, Security.
(your specific skills may be different - as many others have, my skill list has been consolidated and reduced - but you get the idea).
Been using it for almost two years in an active game - works well.
(I use the concept of advantage and disadvantage for certain types of modifiers where I felt a +/-D was not relative). |
Interesting. I'm really looking forward to your ruleset. _________________ *
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pakman Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021 Posts: 441
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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ThrorII wrote: | "....and with that, Luke crashed his X-wing into the Death Star, dying horribly. Because a T-16 really isn't like a starfighter afterall."
While training and untrained skills are a thing for some games, Star Wars really isn't one of them, in my opinion. The concept that EVERYONE can fly a starship at least at their base Mechanical attribute level is VERY Star-Warsy. |
Honestly - I have more the perspective that is not that easy...- that was the whole idea of "who is gonna fly it kid?" from a new hope.
To me, that implies that flying ships is not easy.
Also, in andor - them needing a pilot, especially for a certain ship - is a big deal. (yes, I know some folks have not seen andor - watch it...it is amazing).
However - while that is my take in the star wars universe....
game wise - a t16 and X-wing - are both the same skill - Piloting.
Because they both kind of fly....
This was part of my skill reduction work.
Piloting
Time Taken: One round or longer.
Untrained Use: Disadvantage for anything more than
Easy maneuvers, or complicated craft.
Specialization: Archaic, Air speeders, Attack Craft, Corvettes,
Snub-Fighters, Transports.
Piloting flying vehicles from Air speeders to star fighters and
space transports. This skill is also used in Dodging attacks while
in such vehicles to avoid enemy fire
I take care of complex maneuvers with the "untrained" qualifier (regarding learned skills). So maybe anyone can do something really simple - but anything more - that requires the skill or you are at a big disadvantage.
(roll twice, take the lower value).
Stuff touching the ground is "Vehicle Ops" and cap ships are "Capital Ship Ops"
But - as I say - to each their own in their game. _________________ SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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Kytross Line Captain
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 782
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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That is an interesting use of the Advantage/Disadvantage system. I'll take that under advisement. I tend to favor less rolling in general, so it may not work for me. Though my current players are familiar with advantage/disadvantage.
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I considered Scholar as a learned skill because it represents a character's capacity to do academic research. The specialization tends to show their expertise on a specific matter.
I haven't used it in a few years, but it's come up more than once in games I've GMed and played in.
A real life example of someone without the Scholar skill was when I was helping a veteran friend write a paper for his associates degree. Smart man, expert in many skills, never went to college. He was struggling with this paper for nearly a week before he overcame his pride and asked me for help. I explained the Library of Congress system and the Dewey decimal system to him and BAM! he took to it like a fish to water.
In universe, Scholar was the skill roll Obi-Wan failed when he couldn't find Kamino in the archives.
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Driving a car is an ubiquitous skill in America in real life. It is striking when someone doesn't know how to do it. It is very easy... once you know how.
That's what I'm trying to simulate here. I already hit players with a -5 or -10 point modifier. I'm looking to see if starting them out at 1D in the skill would be easier, and yes, let them advance it like normal. Using it successfully in three adventures would get it to 2D. That may be too harsh of a penalty though. Three adventures is a long time.
Maybe a system where you're at -10 until you succeed once. You're at -5 until you succeed twice, then you're no longer getting a penalty. It's just a lot to keep track of with everything else I'm doing as GM. |
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pakman Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021 Posts: 441
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Kytross wrote: | That is an interesting use of the Advantage/Disadvantage system. I'll take that under advisement. I tend to favor less rolling in general, so it may not work for me. Though my current players are familiar with advantage/disadvantage.
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It works well in our game. now, we also use "success dice" where a 4+ is a success - and each success is one difficutly level - so that is VERY fast (my players hate math).
Kytross wrote: |
I considered Scholar as a learned skill because it represents a character's capacity to do academic research. The specialization tends to show their expertise on a specific matter.
I haven't used it in a few years, but it's come up more than once in games I've GMed and played in.
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I do the same thing - or rather - I increase the difficutly if they are not trained in the field. I let them have a chance - as luck with the wild die might represent "wow, I saw something on the net the other day about that same topic....'.
Kytross wrote: |
Driving a car is an ubiquitous skill in America in real life. It is striking when someone doesn't know how to do it. It is very easy... once you know how.
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That is why I don't consider driving a speeder to be a "learned" skill.
But flying a vehicle - much less a space craft - that is a learned skill for my group.
But I am also basing that on what han said, and in Andor....
And -
Requiring Piloting for anythign other than VERY EASY stuff - that gives value to the player in the party who invsted in Pilot. if anyone else could do it - that reduces player role. Yes, kind of a meta thing - but each group has to find what works for them.
(I have five players....all of them force users - so my meta is a challange!).
Kytross wrote: |
Maybe a system where you're at -10 until you succeed once. You're at -5 until you succeed twice, then you're no longer getting a penalty. It's just a lot to keep track of with everything else I'm doing as GM. |
Make the players track it - kind of like runequest of cyberpunk red.
(put a dot next to the skill on the sheet).
Best of luck in your game!
what ever works.... _________________ SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14212 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Make the players track it - kind of like runequest of cyberpunk red.
(put a dot next to the skill on the sheet).
Best of luck in your game!
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I do remember one of my earlier games, when i first transferred from Bahrain to London, where the DM had you track certain skill uses, (much like how languages, if you get TEN rolls at 20+ you become fluent in X language), and if you got a UNSKILLED roll, at iirc 15 over the diff number, and got up to 10 tick marks, you LEARNED that skill... _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10434 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:22 am Post subject: scholar |
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Kytross wrote: | I considered Scholar as a learned skill because it represents a character's capacity to do academic research. The specialization tends to show their expertise on a specific matter.
I haven't used it in a few years, but it's come up more than once in games I've GMed and played in.
A real life example of someone without the Scholar skill was when I was helping a veteran friend write a paper for his associates degree. Smart man, expert in many skills, never went to college. He was struggling with this paper for nearly a week before he overcame his pride and asked me for help. I explained the Library of Congress system and the Dewey decimal system to him and BAM! he took to it like a fish to water.
In universe, Scholar was the skill roll Obi-Wan failed when he couldn't find Kamino in the archives. |
Yes, scholar does represent someone's ability to perform academic research, but it is also academic knowledge itself, most all academically learned knowledge that is not covered by other skills. Scholar is unique, but as it functions in RAW, it is the specializations that represent special academic training in a certain field. The base skill is general "book-learning".
In my SWU, there is a primary education system in all civilized planets. Even most bounty hunters went to high school (one bounty hunter PC was a former PE teacher who had been educated beyond high school in his background). Most PCs in my game have the equivalent of a high school education, and 2D in my scholarship skill (or base Knowledge) represents a typical skill level. Even someone with only an attribute default may still remember some basic knowledge and academic research abilities picked up in high school.
A Knowledge or scholarship skill value of 3D represents the general studies requirements of a bachelor degree program, a typical college-educated character. A college graduate with a bachelor degree may on average also have a specialization of 4D in his major field of study. A scholarship skill (including from base Knowledge defaulting) of over 3D are characters with a good memory for knowledge in general, regardless of their education level. It is possible for really smart people to have learned and remember a lot of facts regardless of education level, and with the cinematic reality of Star Wars I am not troubled by the existence of rare characters who defy expectations with their academic knowledge and research abilities.
I do have a special rule that the scholarship base skill has a maximum skill value equal to the species' max Knowledge attribute value. Only scholarship specializations may be higher. This allows for scholarship to default to attribute like a normal skill, but also recognizes there are limits to general academic knowledge without specializing.
pakman wrote: | I do the same thing - or rather - I increase the difficutly if they are not trained in the field. |
Yeah. The intention of RAW seems to be that Knowledge specializations are on a different skill difficulty scale. So a difficulty for attribute-defaulting or an improved base skill are based on general knowledge, but expertise can lower the difficulty. I may say something like, the difficulty for a character with the base scholarship skill or only Knowledge is Difficult, while the difficulty for scholarship: botany is moderate, and the difficulty for scholarship: wroshyr trees is Easy. For specializations, the broader the focus is the greater the coverage while a more specific focus is less coverage but more expertise in that focus. I embrace this.
My scholarship rules makes to sense to me so they are there, but it is a very rare skill for PCs to ever have. Scholarship specializations are slightly more common than the base skill but still pretty rare in my game.
Whill wrote: | I don't have an issue with a character attempting (without penalty) to remember something learned in his high school biology class that might be useful in a situation. People remember all kinds of random facts that a lot of other people don't, and this is a cinematic reality so unscholarly characters can uncharacteristically recall something academic on occasion. |
pakman wrote: | I let them have a chance - as luck with the wild die might represent "wow, I saw something on the net the other day about that same topic....'. |
Zang. _________________ *
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pakman Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021 Posts: 441
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2023 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: scholar |
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Whill wrote: | A Knowledge or scholarship skill value of 3D represents the general studies requirements of a bachelor degree program, a typical college-educated character.
I do have a special rule that the scholarship base skill has a maximum skill value equal to the species' max Knowledge attribute value. Only scholarship specializations may be higher. This allows for scholarship to default to attribute like a normal skill, but also recognizes there are limits to general academic knowledge without specializing.
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Hmmmm...... I had long been trying to figure out what to do for a "general" education or knowledge type thing - or heck - even a "current events" type ...
I have a Scholar type skill - but had made everything specialized (archaeology, politics, sciences, etc.)
I skipped a general skill - as I was afraid the players would only buy that.
I might add it back in with some kind of limit ....hmmmm
I am going to have to think about this - THANK you for sharing. _________________ SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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Crimson_red Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Dec 2011 Posts: 113 Location: British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | the difficulty for a character with the base scholarship skill or only Knowledge is Difficult, while the difficulty for scholarship: botany is moderate, and the difficulty for scholarship: wroshyr trees is Easy. For specializations, the broader the focus is the greater the coverage while a more specific focus is less coverage but more expertise in that focus. I embrace this. |
Excellent example! A lot of games with Specializing often make a point about not specializing too narrowly or too broadly, but so rarely do they give a good reason why you might want to do either, or generally how to balance it. This is an excellent approach to adjudicating Specialities. |
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1861 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2023 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure how relevant this is, but I am under the impression (wrong or false) that the Player Characters are "heroic" meaning that the "Average 12D and the +6D to Sttribute" is only in parts what makes them heroic, they CAN default all skills with a chance however slim of sucess.
if we give regular NPCs the 1D minimum, we can then say that with 1D in Mechanical, you really "can not" defualt any skills as the difficulty is simply too high.
I have for some time used a higher difficulty and a -1D to the default roll with the wild dice NOT exploding to solve the issues.
My Gunslinger is that, not a pilot in any way and has a 2D mechnaical.
He has no training at all in any driving or piloting skills, but he does have beast riding.
He is in a desperate situation and tries to figure out hoe to start a speeder bike and escape.
He rolls 1D (-1D becuse the skill requires training to use) and rolls 6
His die does NOT explode and his total is 6
Normally this would be enough, as starting the speeder is easy and was given a difficulty of 6.
However becuse the skill reguire traning his difficulty is increased one step and becomes a moderate and his roll of 6 is a fialure , he has no idea how to start the speeder and must flee on foot.
However becuse of his depserate situation he decides to spend a CP adding +1D to his roll.
Again he rolls perfectly and gets q 12, the action was raised in difficulty from easy 6 to a moderate 11, his roll of 12 is a sucess.
His wild diece doe not explode on " training required" skills.
So in short -1D ro roll
+1 Difficulty tier
Non Exploding Dice |
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Totally Not An ISB Agent Ensign
Joined: 06 May 2020 Posts: 38 Location: New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2024 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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For my game, during character creation, players may choose 25 skills to write down on their character sheet to represent skills that they've learned, if only at base value. Then they can spend their skill dice to improve some skills. If you prefer to use templates, then the skills written on the template would serve the same purpose. In the Blue Book, templates range from having 22 to 35 skills written on the sheet, with an average of 28. I chose 25 because I've combined a few skills.
If a character attempts one of these skills at base value, he gets to roll his full attribute dice. If a character attempts a skill that is not written on his sheet, then he still gets to roll his full attribute dice, but the difficulty is increased by +3 or more, depending on the skill and what he is attempting with it. In addition, he may get an additional +3 or more to the difficulty as he is unfamiliar with the tool/vehicle he is attempting to use.
Also, I use the Know-how skill from D6 Space, and so characters have a chance to potentially eliminate at least some of the unskilled penalties. In addition, a character can use this to eliminate the unfamiliar tool/vehicle penalty.
For example, Bubba is attempting a getaway and hops into an untended airspeeder. He has the Repulsorlift Operation skill, however this one was clearly manufactured for some alien species. The controls are all different, the seat is uncomfortable, and the dials and gauges are in an alien script.
He would normally get an unfamiliar vehicle penalty of +3 or more to the DC of any piloting check he makes whilst in this airspeeder. However, he has the Know-how skill and spends some time studying the controls. I set the Know-how difficulty to Moderate and he makes his roll. "Ah, here's the starter button." He can now pilot the airspeeder without penalty, although the seat is still uncomfortable. |
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