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Redefining Difficulty Levels (number ranges)
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:37 am    Post subject: Redefining Difficulty Levels (number ranges) Reply with quote

As a bit of background, in the 1e core there aren't even difficulty number ranges. We had:

DIFFICULTY NUMBERS
.5 .Very Easy
10 Easy
15 Moderate
20 Difficult
30 Very Difficult

The actual numbers were chosen out of simplicity, because even most arithmetic-challenged players can count by fives and tens. They wanted a system that was easy to remember without having to refer back to rules and charts, but "Moderate" was still pretty difficult for PCs, and "Easy" is pretty difficult for mooks. WEG realized this and so with the first Rules Upgrade they kept the fives as a base but introduced the ranges going below them. WEG never abandoned this through multiple iterations of Star Wars D6, and we also got Heroic and Heroic+. This is better than 1e core strait, but the five-ranges has still left me feeling a little unsettled about it all these years.

You are rolling d6s to compare to those difficulty numbers. Each d6 has an average value of 3.5 (when the wild die is 2-5). It makes sense to me that the difficulty levels better correspond to the number of dice being rolled. So I first thought of having a difficulty level for each die code, but that became unappealing because it would have to have more difficulty levels than what we already have, which would really require an overhaul of the whole difficulty system and coming up with examples for each level for every skill. Ugh, no.

But the solution was hidden in RAW the whole time... This chart caught my eye:

(very) Random Difficulties (Optional)
....Difficulty .Random Difficulty
....Very Easy ....1D
...........Easy ....2D
.....Moderate. 3D-4D
.......Difficult. 5D-6D
Very Difficult. 7D-8D
.........Heroic ...9D+

Seeing the 2D groups made me think of the average result of 2D is 7, which then made me think of this chart:

DIE CODE SIMPLIFICATION
.Die.. Wild
Code. Die
. 1D ... 0
. 2D .. +4
. 3D .. +7
. 4D . +11
. 5D . +14
. 6D . +18
. 7D . +21
. 8D . +25
. 9D . +28

And then I went back to the random difficulty chart and added the average die value for 2D beside it (7). Then, 4D, 6D and 8D would be 14, 21, and 28. If I would use the wild die code simplification from 1D, that would mean that to achieve 7 for 2D, 1D would have to be 3. And then the rest of the +s on the die code simplification chart added up to the values I already had beside the even D values. (So each 1D is still worth 3.5, but the die code simplification chart determined how I rounded on the odd Ds.) So what I had now was:

....Very Easy ....1D .... 3
...........Easy ....2D .... 7
.....Moderate. 3D-4D .14
.......Difficult. 5D-6D .21
Very Difficult. 7D-8D .28
.........Heroic ...9D+

If these are my max/base values, completing the under-ranges gave me:

....Very Easy ....1D .... 1-3
...........Easy ....2D .... 4-7
.....Moderate. 3D-4D ..8-14
.......Difficult. 5D-6D .15-21
Very Difficult. 7D-8D .22-28
.........Heroic ...9D+ ... 29+

I like it. And it is the same number of difficulty levels as RAW so I could keep the names and just tweak the difficulty numbers. And after Easy, the number range increments are all 7 instead of jumping from fives to tens-ish at Very Difficulty. I'd rather the jump be at the low end so the indefinitely high end keeps following the same pattern. And the break at the low end is just splitting one 7-increment roughly in half to keep the whole thing closer to RAW.

So I wanted to complete it and address those situations that call for "Heroic+10" etc. According to RAW, the top of Very Difficult is 30, Heroic is 31+ and Heroic+10 is 40-49. What the huh? Wouldn't that be "Heroic+ 9-18"? So let's just continue the 2D/7 pattern above Very Difficult, giving "Heroic" itself a range with a max...

....Very Easy .....1D ..... 1-3
...........Easy .....2D ..... 4-7
.....Moderate.. 3D-4D ...8-14
.......Difficult.. 5D-6D ..15-21
Very Difficult.. 7D-8D ..22-28
.........Heroic .9D-10D .29-35
.....Heroic+7 11D-12D .36-42

...and so on. It's really not far off from RAW, and every new range overlaps with its range in RAW. Yes it can make some actions easier, but it makes it easier for everyone (PCs and NPCs) equally. Average galactic citizens are not quite so inept for things that are supposed to be "very easy" and "easy". For Easy and up, the top end difficulty number is the mean average roll and median of the corresponding die value, so a little more than half of the time that corresponding number of dice should succeed. The only level we don't have a single median result is 1D (mean average is 3.5), so 1D will succeed at the top end of Very Easy half the time. Of course this mod has no effect on opposed rolls.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:41 am    Post subject: Re: Redefining Difficulty Levels (number ranges) Reply with quote

DIFFICULTY NUMBERS
....1-3. Very Easy
....4-7. Easy
. 8-14. Moderate
15-21. Difficult
22-28. Very Difficult
29-35. Heroic
36-42. Heroic+7


We all know the existing difficulty levels and their order. So all you have to remember to use this mod are multiples of 7 for the top of each difficulty number range starting with Easy, and Very Easy is half of 7 rounded down. I think this makes creating NPCs, designing encounters and planning adventures a little easier for GMs because character attribute and skill die values now directly correspond to the task difficulty chart.

The Die Code Simplification chart directly corresponds to this difficulty system (Wild Die+ and 5D+). You can still use the Random Difficulties chart in RAW for very random difficulties, or you can use this new chart I made below which only creates results within the number ranges for each difficulty level.

Less Random Difficulties (Optional)
(round up division results)
.....1D÷2 ..Very Easy
4+(1D÷2) .Easy
......8+1D .Moderate
....15+1D .Difficult
....22+1D .Very Difficult
....29+1D .Heroic

I tweaked the modifier guidelines according to die values.

Modifier Guidelines
+1-3 Character has only a slight advantage.
+4-7 Character has a good advantage.
+8-10 Character has a decisive advantage.
+11+ Character has an overpowering advantage.

If you used these new DN ranges for ranged combat difficulties (Point Blank through Long still being Very Easy through Difficult), then the high end difficulties for un-dodged shots of the first three DN ranges are a little lower, which puts even more emphasis on the dodge skill. I've already applied the 'die values' mod to the damage/wound system (more coming on that).

Here are some more re-tooled charts:

Damaged Protection / Weapon Chart
D ≥ BS
0-3 Not seriously damaged
4-7 Lightly damaged
8-10 Heavily damaged
11-14 Severely damaged
15+ Destroyed

Heavily damaged weapons lose −2D off their damage and add +7 to all difficulties to use in combat.


Terrain Difficulties
Maneuvers modifiers
+1-3
+4-7
+8-10
+11+

Movement Failures
... 1-3. Slight slip
... 4-7. Slip
..8-10. Fall / Spin
11-14. Minor tumble / collision
15-17. Tumble / Collision
...18+. Major tumble / collision

Vehicle / Spaceship Damage
D≥BS/H
.. 0-3.. Shields blown/controls ionize
.. 4-7.. Lightly damaged
.8-10.. Heavily damaged
11-14. Severely damaged
. 15+.. Destroyed

Ion Damage
_D≥H_
... 0-3.. controls ionize
... 4-7.. 2 controls ionize
. 8-10.. 3 controls ionize
11-14.. 4 controls ionize
.. 15+.. controls dead

Missiles, Bombs and Proton Torpedoes.
Increase to
Difficulty
. Space . Move (Atmosphere)
... +7 ........ 3 ..... 100-150
. +10 ........ 4 ..... 151-200
. +14 ........ 5 ..... 201-250
. +17 ........ 6+ ... 251+

Tractor beam
damage roll . Space units . Target ship's
≥hull roll by: _reeled in_: . __damage_:
.... 0-3 ........ No change .. No damage
.... 4-7 ........ 1 ............... -1 Move
.. 8-10 ........ 2 ............... -2 Moves
.11-14 ........ 3 ............... -3 Moves
... 15+ ........ 4 ............... -4 Moves
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Last edited by Whill on Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always felt that thedifficulty chart was too slanted toward things being difficult. I tend to agree that "easy" being a 10 is a little silly when the "avg" person has 2D in whatever. While I understand that there is a range (6-10) in my experience, GM's tend to ignore that and always use the highest number in the range.

A simple solution (on WEG's part) would have been to list the diifficulty scale based on the lowest range in the category (for example, easy=6+, moderate=11+, etc).

Even still, running the averages is an excellent solution. I find it particularly good in light of the pip system, which will--I'm guessing--make a significant difference to the likelihood of succeeding within one's element. In other words, the difference between 2D and 2D+2 matters more.

Of course, the down side is that people who don't like the mathz will have to learn how to count by 7s... though I suspect that this should not be too difficult for anyone who actually gives it a chance.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a GM, I generally pick the bottom of the difficulty scale for standard skill difficulties. Just easier for everyone.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I often go mid diff.. 7 for easy, 13 for mod, 17 for diff 25 for very diff..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: Redefining Difficulty Levels (number ranges) Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
As a GM, I generally pick the bottom of the difficulty scale for standard skill difficulties. Just easier for everyone.
garhkal wrote:
I often go mid diff.. 7 for easy, 13 for mod, 17 for diff 25 for very diff..

Level RAW . RR .ga . Whill
.. E . . 6-10 . . 6 . . 7 . .4-7
.. M . 11-15 . 11 . 13 . .8-14
.. D . 16-20 . 16 . 17 . 15-21
.VD . 21-30 . 21 . 25 . 22-28

Naaman wrote:
I have always felt that thedifficulty chart was too slanted toward things being difficult. I tend to agree that "easy" being a 10 is a little silly when the "avg" person has 2D in whatever.

I think that was my initial motivation for going this route in the first place. When I looked for solutions, I noticed the RAW difficulty chart level ranges have no correspondence to the number of dice being rolled (other than them both being ordered from lowest to highest). Having a single die code value average for every level was too many levels and more complex than I wanted to deal with, so then the random difficulty chart in R&E (and REUP) was a godsend with the solution to that.

Naaman wrote:
While I understand that there is a range (6-10) in my experience, GM's tend to ignore that and always use the highest number in the range.

A simple solution (on WEG's part) would have been to list the diifficulty scale based on the lowest range in the category (for example, easy=6+, moderate=11+, etc).

I think that would help with the problem you describe of most GMs defaulting to the high end of the range, but WEG seemed to have a concern of the ranges being easy to remember, and 5s and 10s are easier to remember _1s and _6s.

Naaman wrote:
Even still, running the averages is an excellent solution.

Thanks! Reading that from you means a lot to me.

Naaman wrote:
Of course, the down side is that people who don't like the mathz will have to learn how to count by 7s... though I suspect that this should not be too difficult for anyone who actually gives it a chance.

Right. It's just an easy little chart to refer to until it eventually becomes memorized.

DIFFICULTY NUMBERS
....1-3. Very Easy
....4-7. Easy
. 8-14. Moderate
15-21. Difficult
22-28. Very Difficult
29-35. Heroic
36-42. Heroic+7

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally if i was gonna redo it, i would go
V.easy - 1-5 (3 ave)
Easy - 6-10 (7 ave)
Not so easy - 11-15 (13 ave)
Moderate - 16-20 (17 ave)
Difficult - 21-15 (23 ave)
Very difficult - 26-35 (31 ave)
Almost impossible - 46-45 (41 ave)
Heroically impossible - 46-55 (51 ave)
"Never tell me the odds impossible" - 56+
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Redefining Difficulty Levels (number ranges) Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Thanks! Reading that from you means a lot to me.


Really? Thanks. Smile
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Redefining Difficulty Levels (number ranges) Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Less Random Difficulties (Optional)
(round up division results)
.....1D÷2 ..Very Easy
4+(1D÷2) .Easy
......8+1D .Moderate
....15+1D .Difficult
....22+1D .Very Difficult
....29+1D .Heroic

Belated realization on this chart, but perhaps you should move the result ranges to 6 instead of 7, because as it is, you wind up skipping numbers. For example, on a Moderate (8+1D), your maximum result is 14, but on a Difficult (15+1D), your minimum result is 16, so you'll never get a 15, a 22 or a 29, etc. Also, as part of a discussion elsewhere, I came up with a modified version of your random Difficulty chart, with some input from here:
    Simple: 1
    Very Easy: D3 + 1
    Easy: D3 + 5
    Moderate: D6 + 8
    Difficult: D6 + 14
    Very Difficult: D6 + 20
    Heroic: D6 + 26
    Legendary: D6 + 32
    Epic: D6 + 38
    Supreme: D6 + 44

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:40 am    Post subject: Re: Redefining Difficulty Levels (number ranges) Reply with quote

It's hard to believe I posted this over 4 years ago.

Quote:
RAW Random Difficulties (Optional)
....Difficulty .Random Difficulty
....Very Easy ....1D
...........Easy ....2D
.....Moderate. 3D-4D
.......Difficult. 5D-6D
Very Difficult. 7D-8D
.........Heroic ...9D+


Whill wrote:
Random Difficulties (Optional)
(round up division results)
.....1D÷2 ..Very Easy
4+(1D÷2) .Easy
......8+1D .Moderate
....15+1D .Difficult
....22+1D .Very Difficult
....29+1D .Heroic


CRMcNeill wrote:
Belated realization on this chart, but perhaps you should move the result ranges to 6 instead of 7, because as it is, you wind up skipping numbers. For example, on a Moderate (8+1D), your maximum result is 14, but on a Difficult (15+1D), your minimum result is 16, so you'll never get a 15, a 22 or a 29, etc. Also, as part of a discussion elsewhere, I came up with a modified version of your random Difficulty chart, with some input from here:
    Simple: 1
    Very Easy: D3 + 1
    Easy: D3 + 5
    Moderate: D6 + 8
    Difficult: D6 + 14
    Very Difficult: D6 + 20
    Heroic: D6 + 26
    Legendary: D6 + 32
    Epic: D6 + 38
    Supreme: D6 + 44


Although not explicit, I presume that by "D3" you mean the same thing that I put in D6 terms, 1D÷2 (round up).

Thank you for taking interest in part of the redefined difficulty ranges and sharing your alternative random difficulty generation chart to my difficulty ranges. Your random difficulty chart is a much better option than RAW's random chart, which is way too random with possible results being far outside the RAW ranges. Someone reading this thread may prefer yours to mine. I created a chart that compares the outcome ranges:


You mentioned possible difficulty numbers being skipped and I see that no "5" result is possible on yours. That isn't important to me, but I just thought I'd mention it in case it is important to you.

The main premise of my whole redefined difficulty ranges concept is to line the difficulty ranges up to die code averages. So 3.5 and 7 are the magic numbers. When the random difficulty ranges are 6 apart instead of 7, the ranges are misaligned and things get off track the further away in either direction you are from the center point you chose (M/D on your chart).

A secondary purpose for my random difficulties chart is to replace the RAW formulas for each difficulty level with something that does not produce results outside of the difficulty range. All of your levels except M and D do that. Granted, it is not far outside like RAW's chart.

Your chart having only one skipped possible result number is a different priority to mine of everything being based on 3.5/7 and the random chart staying within my difficulty ranges, which are more important to me. Rolling a single d6 only produces 6 possible results, so I was left with leaving out the top or bottom possible result for every difficulty level above VE, and I just went with bottom.

To be honest, I hardly ever use random difficulties in my game. How hard is it for a GM to just pick a number in the range? I just wanted to update every chart in the R&E book to be based on die code averages, and thought while I was at it for this chart I would also have all possible results for each level to actually fall in that level's ranges. Looking at my random chart again, I could just subtract one from every number and shift it down to leave off the top result of each level range instead of the bottom result, so it would be a little easier for people to remember.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Redefining Difficulty Levels (number ranges) Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Although not explicit, I presume that by "D3" you mean the same thing that I put in D6 terms, 1D÷2 (round up).

Correct. You can actually buy D3s, which are just D6's with only 1-3 results, or you can just use any D6 and subtract 3 from any 4-6 result to get the same effect.

Quote:
You mentioned possible difficulty numbers being skipped and I see that no "5" result is possible on yours. That isn't important to me, but I just thought I'd mention it in case it is important to you.

Good catch. I had to make multiple adjustments to the chart, and obviously that one slipped through the cracks.

Quote:
The main premise of my whole redefined difficulty ranges concept is to line the difficulty ranges up to die code averages.

Fair point.

Quote:
How hard is it for a GM to just pick a number in the range?

I expect it's harder for some GMs than others. Some GMs, especially less experienced ones, may second-guess their own ability to truly randomize a number, so the dice provides a "training wheel" of sorts to truly randomize a result within a given range, until the GM can become confident enough in running the system to forego it.

As an aside, I hadn't considered it before, but I really like the idea of a Simple Difficulty level, with the level set so low that any idiot with a 1D skill level can complete Task X, but with the possibility of Wild Dice Failure still factored in.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran yesterday, and I found that using the standard 1E Difficulties a Moderate Difficulty (15) was a significant challenge for my starting characters. Which was good, since picking the difficulty level and just using the number rather than the range made it so I didn't need to worry so much about being finnicky with difficulty scale.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill, how does this system compare to the Open D6 Difficulties, where the spread for Very Difficult and Heroic is reduced from 10 to 5, with Legendary replacing Heroic at the 31+ mark?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WHILL wrote:
DIFFICULTY NUMBERS
....1-3. Very Easy
....4-7. Easy
. 8-14. Moderate
15-21. Difficult
22-28. Very Difficult
29-35. Heroic
36-42. Heroic+7


The author of D6 SPACE wrote:
DIFFICULTY NUMBERS
....1-5. Very Easy
..6-10. Easy
11-15. Moderate
16-20. Difficult
21-25. Very Difficult
26-30. Heroic
...31+. Legendary


CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill, how does this system compare to the Open D6 Difficulties, where the spread for Very Difficult and Heroic is reduced from 10 to 5, with Legendary replacing Heroic at the 31+ mark?

I may not understand the question, but it compares like above. I knew Purgatory D6 difficulty levels were based on 5s like all versions of Star Wars D6, so I didn't specifically consult it or compare when I decided to go with 7s.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Redefining Difficulty Levels (number ranges) Reply with quote

I really like this change to number ranges, it appears to fix everything from the RAW number ranges that rubbed me the wrong way simply by accounting for how d6 behave. I suspect remembering "Up to 3/7/14/21/28/+7" is just as easy/easier to remember than "Up to 5/10/15/20/30/+10," especially if someone has played any notable number of games that used d6 in play (Your game uses pairs of d6? I Bet you something happens on a '7' . . . like rolling a '7' on a pair of d6, it may not be a good bet, but it is the best bet).

Whill, it appears you were using this change four years after you first posted it, if so, are you still using now? Do you have any addition observations/thoughts/experiences you might share after using these numbers? Has anyone else been using Whill's Number Ranges, and have you any additional insights/feelings?

A little off-topic, I think I also like these numbers for things like Skill (Damage) Bonus, something like, "For every 7 points above the difficulty number add +1d6 to a resulting damage roll, or apply as a bonus/penalty for a round." It would fall somewhere between the two variants in Rules of Engagement. A +2D difference in a skill die code would loosely translate into +1D bonus in damage or other other derived effect.
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