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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:18 pm Post subject: An Alternate View of Hyperspace |
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So, I finally got around to reading the Honor Harrington series by David Weber, and I have been very impressed. One of the things that has struck me is how hyperspace works in his universe, and I wonder if it might provide an alternate possibility for hyperspace in the SWU.
Now, in Star Wars, I have always pictured hyperspace to be a single, alternate dimension in which everything travels much faster than it does in the real world. To visualize this, I picture the layers on an onion. If real space is the outer skin of the onion, hyperspace is one of the inner layers, with every point on the outer layer having a corresponding point on the inner layer. If you transition from the outer layer to the inner layer, your trip will be much shorter because the distance required to travel is much shorter. It isn't a perfect analogy, but then, few analogies ever are.
I have always pictured hyperspace being a single layer of that onion, with differing speeds of travel based on the speed and power of the drive being used. However, David Weber presents an alternate perspective that I find fascinating.
In short, he proposes that there is not a single hyperspace, but multiple layers of hyperspace, and the further "up" you go, the faster you can travel. The barriers between each individual level (or "band", as they are called in the Honorverse) become progressively more and more turbulent the higher up a ship transitions, to the point where the upper speed limit in the Hnorverse is defined not by the power of the drives used, but by the ability of said ship and drive to survive the turbulence of transitioning between bands at the highest known levels.
Just suppose that a ship's given Hyperdrive Multiplier is not a representation of how fast it can travel in a single dimension, but how high up the dimensional ladder it can climb and still survive the turbulence.
Mass shadows would remain in effect across all the various bands, so nothing would really change. It would also more easily explain something like Otherspace, which is described as being "beyond hyperspace". With multiple hyperspace bands, Otherspace could simply be a calm pocket of interdimensional space between bands.
Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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I like it, but if you are keeping mass gravity shadows then it's an unnecessary level of detail. The main factor in SW hyperspace travel speed is how well known the course is - The less well known the course is the greater the risk of danger from massive objects. Which specific 'level' of hyperspace being travelled is just fluff with no actual impact on the outcome.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:11 am Post subject: |
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True. Still makes for an interesting idea, though. It also makes for a novel explanation as to the various hyperspace multipliers; rather than allowing incremental upgrades in speed, a more powerful drive (or a modified original drive) would not make a ship incrementally faster, but would instead allow the ship to break through the turbulence separating the x1 band from the x 3/4 band.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:18 am Post subject: |
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That might explain why a ship traveling in hyperspace doesn't see other ships, even if they entered in the same spot (like the ships that attacked at Endor).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:21 am Post subject: |
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That's not quite what I meant. In the case of Endor, all of those ships would be traveling in the same "band" since they were flying in formation.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Which makes me wonder.
A, X and Y wings have a X1 while Bwings have X2 hyperdrive.
Corellian corvettes and neb Bs have x2, while mon cals have X1.
So in that Raid, did all ships downgrade themselves to the same 'rating'?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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I've always felt that a ship with a given hyperdrive rating can downgrade to a lower rating if it so chooses, such as in the case of ships flying in formation through hyperspace.
That being said, having all of the fighters fly to Endor under their own power was rather silly. It would've been far better for them to be riding aboard the cruiser, rested, well fed, with their fighters fully fueled and ready to launch the moment the cruisers dropped out of hyperspace at Endor. At x2, that means all of those pilots spent 38 hours riding in those cramped cockpits with nowhere to pee, eating whatever rations were available in the cockpit. I'd much rather be racked out aboard the carrier catching up on my sleep and not burning flight hours on my fighter than doing that.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Then you have to figure out how long it would take to scramble them all.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Considering you wouldn't have to line them up for catapult shots, it shouldn't take too long.
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RyanDarkstar
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Was it comfirmed that what is depicted on screen was the fleet massed at Sullust? Perhaps what we see is a micro-jump to Endor. Highly doubtful cinematically, but plausible.
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Barrataria
Commander
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | I've always felt that a ship with a given hyperdrive rating can downgrade to a lower rating if it so chooses, such as in the case of ships flying in formation through hyperspace.
That being said, having all of the fighters fly to Endor under their own power was rather silly. It would've been far better for them to be riding aboard the cruiser, rested, well fed, with their fighters fully fueled and ready to launch the moment the cruisers dropped out of hyperspace at Endor. At x2, that means all of those pilots spent 38 hours riding in those cramped cockpits with nowhere to pee, eating whatever rations were available in the cockpit. I'd much rather be racked out aboard the carrier catching up on my sleep and not burning flight hours on my fighter than doing that. |
I agree on all counts, I guess Lucas wanted the starfighters to be jump-capable for dramatic reasons... but it's always strained my immersion. I really try not to care about reality in SW, but it's gotta be some pretty magical juju that can move something the size of my living room into hyperspace and sustain the crew for days. Otherwise, why do capital ships need to be so big at all?
In my post-Endor Alliance setting, the Alliance has played out its only sources of the [unobtainium] (still looking for a good name) and therefore has lost the ability to build or use hyperdrive capable starfighters. Lone Scouts and shuttles and freighters can be retrofitted with more conventional hyperdrives, but the Alliance starfighters are just too small.
Also, I don't think I replied to your original post: neat idea, makes my brain hurt because I haven't thought that deeply on the nature of hyperspace for my game. I like the concept of ship construction being related to hyperspace viability.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| RyanDarkstar wrote: | | Was it comfirmed that what is depicted on screen was the fleet massed at Sullust? Perhaps what we see is a micro-jump to Endor. Highly doubtful cinematically, but plausible. |
Actually, not doubtful at all. In the initial Rebel Fleet scenes, we never see any planets or nearby stars, so there is nothing cinematically that requires that scene must be near Sullust. In fact, it would actually be a better solution than what I suggested: jumping the fleet most of the way to Endor, dropping into realspace a half-hour or so out from the system, deploying the fighter groups, and then all jumping in to Endor together, is a good "happy medium" that incorporates the best of both worlds. The pilots are all fresh and rested, their ships are fully fueled, and they are simultaneously ready for combat the moment they arrive.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Barrataria wrote: | I agree on all counts, I guess Lucas wanted the starfighters to be jump-capable for dramatic reasons... but it's always strained my immersion. I really try not to care about reality in SW, but it's gotta be some pretty magical juju that can move something the size of my living room into hyperspace and sustain the crew for days. Otherwise, why do capital ships need to be so big at all?
In my post-Endor Alliance setting, the Alliance has played out its only sources of the [unobtainium] (still looking for a good name) and therefore has lost the ability to build or use hyperdrive capable starfighters. Lone Scouts and shuttles and freighters can be retrofitted with more conventional hyperdrives, but the Alliance starfighters are just too small. |
Doesn't sound like Star Wars to me, but your universe = your call.
It does make me wonder, however, if you aren't letting your own preconceptions get in the way. It's pretty clearly established in ROTJ (and ESB, to a lesser degree) that starfighters the size of X-Wings can be equipped with hyperdrives, so I don't really see the logic in denying that fact just because you don't believe it should be possible. This is a science-fiction/space opera universe, and to play in it at all requires a pretty healthy serving of suspension of disbelief. YMMV.
As for capital ships, they are that big because of the various missions they are required to perform. A Star Destroyer is a combination carrier, assault transport, dreadnought, repair facility, command base, etc, etc. All rolled into one. All of those differing missions require volume of space to carry the equipment and facilities required to perform those missions, and all of that takes up room. As well as another healthy serving of suspension of disbelief. I find it easier to just go with it.
| Quote: | | Also, I don't think I replied to your original post: neat idea, makes my brain hurt because I haven't thought that deeply on the nature of hyperspace for my game. I like the concept of ship construction being related to hyperspace viability. |
At its core, hyperspace is just a medium allowing for the films / game to occur at a galactic level. It only needs to be more complicated than that if you want it to.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | RyanDarkstar wrote: | | Was it comfirmed that what is depicted on screen was the fleet massed at Sullust? Perhaps what we see is a micro-jump to Endor. Highly doubtful cinematically, but plausible. |
Actually, not doubtful at all. In the initial Rebel Fleet scenes, we never see any planets or nearby stars, so there is nothing cinematically that requires that scene must be near Sullust. In fact, it would actually be a better solution than what I suggested: jumping the fleet most of the way to Endor, dropping into realspace a half-hour or so out from the system, deploying the fighter groups, and then all jumping in to Endor together, is a good "happy medium" that incorporates the best of both worlds. The pilots are all fresh and rested, their ships are fully fueled, and they are simultaneously ready for combat the moment they arrive. |
If i was in charge of the fleet, that is what i would have done too. Jump close enough, that at most a half hr hyper in would be needed, so we could have all the fighters out and at the ready.
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Barrataria
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | It's pretty clearly established in ROTJ (and ESB, to a lesser degree) that starfighters the size of X-Wings can be equipped with hyperdrives, so I don't really see the logic in denying that fact just because you don't believe it should be possible. |
Pretty sure I didn't suggest it was canon. My entire campaign is based on scarcity and breakdown of trade routes and balkanization of Alliance and Empire cells. Not sure how having Alliance and Imperial starfighters work by the same rules breaks Star Wars for you, but that's not really what this thread is about so I'll keep quiet.
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