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Dark Side Points
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Gregorius
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:36 pm    Post subject: Dark Side Points Reply with quote

Can non force sensitive characters receive dark side points?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, they can.

But only for really heinous acts.
Everyone on the Death Star received a dark side point for blowing up Alderaan. Committing genocide, killing innocent men, women and children in cold blood, and torture are examples of things that would grant a non-force sensitive a dark side point.

These are things that I would assume would grant a dark side point.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
...Everyone on the Death Star received a dark side point for blowing up Alderaan.

Ummm....Princess Leia was on the Death Star. I'm guessing she didn't get a DS point. I would think you would need active participation and knowledge of the destruction to get a DS point. To me, that implies some people on the Death Star did not get DS points.
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Urban Spaceman
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like the idea of Dave, the Death Star janitor, cleaning the toilets on deck 12, when he hears the laser fire up, and suddenly feels the taint of evil flowing through his veins!!!! Laughing

Several non-Force Sensitive NPC's are listed as having Dark Side Points (Boba Fett springs to mind, and several other examples appear in the Bounty Hunters Galaxy Guide), so yes.
For Player Characters, I seem to recall that they can only get a Dark Side Point if they spend a Force Point on an evil act. Although there may be exceptions to that.
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Bobmalooga
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once gave out a darkside point to a non-sensitive for shooting people in the back to clear a room as the pc's were trying to escape from a prison that was going to explode.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, non force sensitives get it for needless or gratuitious violence.. such as blasting a ko'ed foe who was not even a threat (such as say a prison guard ho did not even know you were there and was knocked out, then you kill him just to be sure). Stomping foes into bloody puddles even though they are already dead...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
To me, non force sensitives get it for needless or gratuitious violence.. such as blasting a ko'ed foe who was not even a threat (such as say a prison guard ho did not even know you were there and was knocked out, then you kill him just to be sure). Stomping foes into bloody puddles even though they are already dead...

My understanding is that in the real world Spec Forces will shoot downed opponents to ensure they are dead. Would you see this as needless violence (hence DSP worthy) or is this justified?
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
To me, non force sensitives get it for needless or gratuitious violence.. such as blasting a ko'ed foe who was not even a threat (such as say a prison guard ho did not even know you were there and was knocked out, then you kill him just to be sure). Stomping foes into bloody puddles even though they are already dead...

My understanding is that in the real world Spec Forces will shoot downed opponents to ensure they are dead. Would you see this as needless violence (hence DSP worthy) or is this justified?


Probably not 'per kill' but for a period of such operations yes. Even if its 'justified' in a tactical sense such persons are often 'damaged goods' which in SW could be represented by a DSP. Also note that there are examples of Jedis turning to the DS from fighting bloody but 'justified' conflicts so the 'justified' part is not a guarantee to stay on the light side.
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Sid Sonoma
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
To me, non force sensitives get it for needless or gratuitious violence.. such as blasting a ko'ed foe who was not even a threat (such as say a prison guard ho did not even know you were there and was knocked out, then you kill him just to be sure). Stomping foes into bloody puddles even though they are already dead...

My understanding is that in the real world Spec Forces will shoot downed opponents to ensure they are dead. Would you see this as needless violence (hence DSP worthy) or is this justified?


Probably not 'per kill' but for a period of such operations yes. Even if its 'justified' in a tactical sense such persons are often 'damaged goods' which in SW could be represented by a DSP. Also note that there are examples of Jedis turning to the DS from fighting bloody but 'justified' conflicts so the 'justified' part is not a guarantee to stay on the light side.


As long as the bolded two are enemy combatants, i would say no dsp for non force sensitives. If they were innocent bystanders that were gunned down then put down (coup de grace)...I could probably justify a dsp for the encounter.

Jedi are force sensitive, so of course they get different treatment and would get dsp for coup de grace.
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Gregorius
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting everyone, I have an idea of how this could work.
Thanks for the help
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
To me, non force sensitives get it for needless or gratuitious violence.. such as blasting a ko'ed foe who was not even a threat (such as say a prison guard ho did not even know you were there and was knocked out, then you kill him just to be sure). Stomping foes into bloody puddles even though they are already dead...

My understanding is that in the real world Spec Forces will shoot downed opponents to ensure they are dead. Would you see this as needless violence (hence DSP worthy) or is this justified?


Just cause to us it might be justified, does still not make it right acording to the code/dark side.. many spec forces people have real bad issues getting acclimated to regular life after they are done with the services.

Quote:
As long as the bolded two are enemy combatants, i would say no dsp for non force sensitives. If they were innocent bystanders that were gunned down then put down (coup de grace)...I could probably justify a dsp for the encounter.


Technically a cop guarding your jail cell is by definition an enemy combatant...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only ever ran one player (age 14-16) who had to be warned repeatedly that his non-Force-sensitive PC's stated action would earn a DSP, but he always relented. He is also the one PC who I've ever let gain Force-sensitivity after a year of play, and after his first DSP (which at the time he rationalized was for the greater good), he actually took it more seriously and got warnings much less often. But then at the end of the module Black Ice after he defeated the the Imperial engineer's traps and captured him, he was mad and said he wanted to maim the Imp (who had surrendered, was completely defensless and had no DSPs). I was annoyed and he insisted, so I said fine, in a fit of rage you maim him and then you cross over to the Dark Side. Campaign over. I took his character sheet and never played with that player again.

In a different group I had a player playing a Force-Sensitive character who didn't get too many warnings but found that being a Jedi student wasn't as much fun as he thought it would be, so he intentionally racked up the DSPs in one adventure until he crossed over knowing that I would take his PC but allow him to create a new character (this time a non-Force one).

Only one other occasion stands out in my mind. One player got a warning just one time. He was playing an independant (and non-Force-sensitive) Wookiee bounty hunter who was tracking his quarry through an apartment building and busted into a frail old human lady's home. She was scared and screaming but not budging from her position directly in front of him. The player declared the PC just back-hand her with all his strength. I said that would warrant a DSP and he changed his action to ignore her and walks by her, goes to her fridge, takes out a full 4-liter jug of blue milk that he messily chugs and then walks through the apartment to back door and busts through it. Attacking an innocent old lady gets DSP, but breaking two doors and drinking all her milk does not!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love it when the Pit gets philosophical!

There are base evil things that warrant a DSP whether a Force PC or not. But Force PCs have the added difficulty of not acting out of fear, anger and hatred, so the emotion behind their actions is a concern and not just the end. In roleplaying that is sometimes a judgement call I have to make based on the situation although players sometimes state they are not acting out of emotion when sometimes they are acting out of their own emotion (which counts because players shouldn't let a fantasy make them feel negative emotions in real life) or the character realistically would be emotional in the particular situation. And then the other main factor for Force PCs is using the Force to harm people directly, even evil ones.

In my game, just killing agents of the Empire in combat (with blasters set to kill) is not evil in itself because their leader is the pinnacle of evil. They may be neutrals who just feel they are following orders or doing their job, or brainwashed into thinking the Empire is good, or they could be evil themselves. Now this doesn't mean killing them when they are unconscious, captured or otherwise no longer an immediate threat. That is evil, unless they are Force-sensitives who are crossed over to the Dark Side. Star Wars isn't real life, but in my game Rebel and New Republic Spec Forces do not shoot downed enemies to make sure they are dead. If they would, they would get a DSP (unless the downed enemy is a Sith Lord). In war that may sometimes be a disadvantage, but I think the Spec Forces survivors can live with themselves a little easier afterwards. Now I don't see a problem with switching to stun and shooting a downed enemy to make sure they are really unconscious and not faking.

In my game, Anakin may not have gotten a DSP for decapacitating Dooku. The Sith Lord really was too dangerous to be left alive. By the same note, Mace Windu would not have gotten a DSP if he had killed Palpatine (but Anakin most certainly would for cutting off Mace Windu's hand and allowing Palpatine to kill him).

Killing Dark Siders out of anger or hatred or directly with the Force would still earn a DSP because those situations override the morality of killing agents of evil lost to the Dark Side. Luke earned a DSP when attacking Vader in rage, but then seeing Vader's mechanical arm he realized he was going down the Dark path like his father had and stopped himself from killing Vader in anger and perhaps crossing over. We can assume Luke attoned and the DSP was removed eventually.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know he earned 2 dsps through out the ROTJ time frame (one there, one for the gamorean choke).. but i cannot remember where he redeamed himself at..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I know he earned 2 dsps through out the ROTJ time frame (one there, one for the gamorean choke).. but i cannot remember where he redeamed himself at..
Well I'm guessing he started his fasting during the celebration feast prepared by the headhunting Ewoks at which they no doubt served spit roasted stormtrooper. Laughing

Now if you don't believe the Ewoks are headhunters and eaters of sentient beings, recall the Ewok didn't recognize Leia's helmet was "a hat" and the row of stormtrooper "heads" used as drums during the celebration along with the fact that the Ewoks were going to cook Han, Luke, and Chewy at the feast to honor C-3P0 the god.

Ewoks: cute, cuddley, with very sharp teeth.
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