A Comment on a D6 Criticism that I have heard...

[Jedi Knight Jael Weiss]

Hi guys,

I was checking out what the enemy was writing about the D6 system on another forum, and one of the things that they wrote is their opinion that the D6 system is vastly unbalanced in favor of the Jedi characters, wheras the D20 ::trying not to lose his cookies:: is better for game balance because no one character class truly dominates.

First of all, I might, POSSIBLY see where they are coming on this. I remember one of my first groups I played back in the late 1980's featured an outlaw, a bounty hunter, a mercenary, and a Jedi who all had just outrageous stats when it was all said and done (we were having fun and just playing a "Monty Haul" type of game; would not recommend doing that if you want to be serious). But even with the outlaw's 20D blaster skill with his modified heavy blaster pistol that did 14D damage, the Jedi could have still killed all of them with a Telekinetic Kill if he so desired.

So I can see why some would consider the D6 to be unbalanced. But even if that was a general truth (the above example is obviously an EXCEPTION to the rule), and I still think that line of reasoning is a stretch in the first place, the very nature of the Star Wars universe should provide a balancing factor: Jedi teachers are extremely rare, especially if you are playing in the Rebellion era. I would think that whatever advantages a Jedi would have in the Star Wars universe would be more than offset by the fact that is is extremely difficult, if not even impossible, to be able to learn the Force powers and skills. Trying to find a teacher that hasn't been killed by Vader, or whatever reason.

So it seems more of an indictment of the GMs than a knock on the D6 system. If the GM makes things like that too accessable, then yes, it will seriously upset the balance of the game! A GM needs to make sure that he/she has a good understanding of the Star Wars galaxy, taking things like politics and pervading attitudes into account, and knowing exactly what would be available depending on when the game was played.

It would be just like the GM giving the group a device that can control any ship they want by remote control, without a crew, and the party decides to go after the Death Star and run it all over the galaxy. Don't give the group such a device! And don't give your Jedi novice a teacher that has 13D in all of his skills after the second adventure of your campaign! But if you absolutely have to do so, let him have his teacher for a couple of sessions and then have the teacher killed off. That will give the Jedi novice a chance to raise his skills by a couple of pips without giving him/her all they want. Whet their appetite, but don't force the food down their throat...

I know I am speaking to the choir here, but any comments?

[Son of Fire]

Well I do tend to think that Jedi are a bit more favoured in the D6 system. But look at Star Wars for a moment…Jedi are favoured by Lucas himself; during the Rebellion era a Jedi rules the galaxy, his right hand is the most powerful Jedi ever, and the one who destroys them both along with their great tech achievements is a budding Jedi and the new top dog in the Jedi power scale. The Jedi are always perceived to be enlightened, evolved, intellectuality superior, legendary characters. Any non-Jedi who stand against them tend to die real quick (except in Jango’s case).
Now this may now have been what anyone wants to hear but look strictly at the movies, that’s the case. Luckily some of the authors for EU material have decided to expand the horizons of Lucas’s vision and everyone else who may not be a Jedi a chance to really shine. With the advent of cortosis among other anti-Jedi tech there has been a stabilizing factor within the EU, providing non-Force sensitive’s a chance at glory, as well as a fighting chance against a Jedi.
Coupling that with things already existing in the D6 system, like Martial Arts (which not many people, including Jedi, would have) tends to make things a bit more dangerous for the invincible Force wielders.

On a more personal note, I always tend to view the Star Wars universe have two forms of “magic” in its mythos…the first being the Force, and the second being the technology. Without have to resort to some insipid “treknobabble” they free them selves to make devices to do what ever they envision. This in turn extends to the game and characters.
And though the Jedi may have the market cornered in the Force department, they sure are lacking the tech, which leaves a very nice and big avenue open for player to exploit, and consider the vast types of weapons available there are plenty of ways for a Joe-blow bounty hunter to make a Jedi fondue. Alls it takes is a little creativity and your ready to go.

One last thing…now I will whole admit that the D6 system is far from perfect, you could ask anyone on this board and they would know me for my constant (to the point of annoying in some folks eyes) re assessing and tweaking of the rules.
But for all its faults, the D6 system is infinity superior to the D20 for Star Wars gaming. It embodies everything that is needed to capture the feel of the movie we all love and obsess over, its cinematic, and limitless in character growth, diversity, and potential. Which is something that WotC really need to reassess in their rigid system. Sure it may look great and have the support of Lucas Licensing…but it will never have mine in the venue. I have drank apricot brandy from a golden chalice…why would I want to go have backwashed ripple in a dirty glass?

Ok there my two cents.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Crell Damar]

Jedi are counterbalanced as players with their quick ability to fall to the darkside... if the jedi craves knowledge in the force arts to become more powerful, then he's already heading down the dark path. Remember, if a Jedi character falls to the darkside, he loses him... that takes care of a lot of power players... but when you also think about the jedi in WEG, they have 3 extra attributes that they need to beef up... and without a teacher, it's double the attribute cost to raise it, or 10cp for a single skill...
Jedi get outweighed with the little power they posess, and the extreme amounts of CP it takes to make a decent jedi... and, most jedi get killed off before they ever get to be strong enough to take on most challenges...
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"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire. "

Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Ragnar]

One thing to keep in mind is that characters in general don't start with 15D skills... it takes a hellsa long time to get that far especially with a jedi. Jedi have more skills to train in to become a GrandMaster, and even the greatest of jedi aren't always able to compare with very skilled non-jedi. Furthermore NO personal weapon, that isn't made up, can be modified to do 14D damage. You can only modify the damage +1D+2 which in at most ends up with a blaster that can do around 8D.

[Rathe Ehtar]

Yes my friends, D6 is the best system for Star Wars. Considering the fact that Force sensitive characters sacrifice a D or more from basic attributes for Force skills is proof enough that their is a balance in place. D20 the jedi just needs a feat. Blasphemy!!

As Son of Fire pointed out above, Jedi are not invincible. A skilled non-force user could take down even a powerful jedi. Jango for one. Many of my players have defeated powerful warrior-type Jedi as well. I mention warrior-type because a skilled Jedi manipulator such as the Emperor, would have a serious advantage over the fools who rush into his lair. While a warrior-type jedi would just have a lightsaber and possibly make use of his force throwing.
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"I don't know about angels, but it's fear that gives men wings." -Max Payne

"I don't buy that cluck like a dog, bark like a chicken stuff." -Col. Jack O'Neill

[Loc Taal]

I think the game is pretty well-balanced, just because starting Jedi characters are usually pretty weak. As Rathe pointed out, Jedi have to sacrifice attribute dice to buy beginning force skills. This means that beginning Jedi who choose to have control, sense and alter all at 1D have only 15D (instead of the standard 18D for most species) to put into attributes (strength, dexterity, etc). I agree that once Jedi characters become more advanced the game gets a little unbalanced in their favor, but I think it's supposed to. I think that's the point of playing a Jedi character. If you can survive long enough to become powerful in the force, you will be very powerful indeed. 8)
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"Mind what you have learned. Save you it can." --Yoda

The original RANCOR PIT archive

[Volo Enrunk]

um... what "powerful jedi" did jango take down? i only remember him really facing Mace Windu (which by the way is the name of a squib in one of the adventure journals. -sorry off topic) and Mace lopped his head off. all those other jedi were aprentice which means they probly had under 6D force skills... another way you could balance it further would be to make the force skills an Attribute. and the powers a skill. and the skill can never exceed x3 the attribute. that would slow them down alot. im sure it was said it really depends on the GM its not in the system.
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Sabbac anyone?

[Son of Fire]

Ok, in the script, and the official novel it was mentioned that Jango killed “several” Jedi. Also in the film we see him shoot a Jedi off a balcony…this was the same dinosaur like Jedi with a dark colouration that we see in the Jedi temple on Corusant (sp?).
And considering that in every scene that he was shot in he was alone, its safe to assume that he was not a Padawan, but indeed was a full blown Jedi.
Further still, remember that Jango fought one of the upper echelon Jedi’s (Obi-Wan) to a stand still, and it took a wounded Jango, with malfunctioning equipment and missing one of his primary weapons, to get killed by one of the most powerful Jedi alive. Who also happened to head the council, and supposedly was the greatest lightsabre combatant alive.
To me, he did pretty well considering the circumstances and whom he was facing.
_________________
"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Loc Taal]

The Jedi that we see Jango kill in the movie was Coleman Trebor, who was a Jedi Master.

Now back to the topic, that the WEG D6 system is unbalanced in favor of the Jedi characters.
_________________
"Mind what you have learned. Save you it can." --Yoda

The original RANCOR PIT archive

[Jedi Knight Jael Weiss]

Ah, very good. The discussion is hot and heavy...

Seriously, good points by everyone. I guess when I said what I initially said I wasn't looking at it from a "pure rules" standpoint, but from the point of view that the GM is ultimately responsible for whatever is put into the game.

One point that Rathe and Loc made that I totally missed is the requirement to spend an attribute die in order to learn a Force skill. And that is for just 1D; if you want to use any of your starting 7D to improve your Force skills, that still at the very most means having a 3D in one of them, which by player character standards is not that good (above average training, but not quite professional level).

One time I remember a co-hort of mine making up a Young Jedi and putting 6 of his 7D into improving his Force skills to 3D each, leaving him just 1D to raise another skill. Not the most effective character, if my memory serves, and we never played that particular campaign long enough for him to compensate for the very slow start that he put himself into.

It seems like Jedi are like the magic-users in D&D, with one exception: To me, it's a LOT harder to improve your Force skills than for a magic-user to gain levels. Remember, in theory, the skill points that are earned at the end of each adventure remain pretty constant in Star Wars WEG, while in D&D (and, I would assume, the D20 Star Wars ::chokes:: ) the XPs go up as the characters advance in levels.

Interesting thoughts raised here. And believe me, I will always stick with D6. In fact, I may go hunting around on eBay and other sites tonight to see what is out there that I may not have at this time...
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"Of the making of books there is no end, and much study wearies the body..."- Solomon

[Son of Fire]

Thanks Loc, I wondered what that dino dudes name was.

But I was not intentionally deviating from the topic, I was just trying to illustrate that Jedi are not as invincible as they may seem. I was merely fortifying my point about the D6 system with some onscreen evidence, which supported my argument.

I’m trying to curb my thread hijacking.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Jedi Knight Jael Weiss]

Hey Ragnar,

The campaign that we did where the outlaw had a 14D blaster was basically a "screw around," "let's see how really messed up we can make things" campaign. It wasn't really a serious one, given the fact that we usually played games until 4am, when drinking milk became an extremely humorous act.

There is NO WAY I would ever allow something like that to happen in my game nowadays, even if the game rules had nothing against something like that...
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"Of the making of books there is no end, and much study wearies the body..."- Solomon

[zarkempt]

The D20 system for starwars just sounds wrong, D6 is the only starwars game in my book. Save the D20s for D&D.
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set force pikes to the other setting

[Rathe Ehtar]

Thank you zarkempt!

Like others have mentioned above, Jedi can only be as powerful as the MOG would allow. Personally, I've tried a young jedi with the 7d starting dice and it really blew. If I ever play a jedi again it would probably be with the failed jedi template or maybe the minor jedi.
_________________
"I don't know about angels, but it's fear that gives men wings." -Max Payne

"I don't buy that cluck like a dog, bark like a chicken stuff." -Col. Jack O'Neill

[Crell Damar]

i'd definately go with the failed jedi... only because he starts with the lightsaber skill
although i would still have that darkside point to worry about...
_________________
"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire. "

Obi-Wan Kenobi