Should they succeed?

[garhkal]

Brought from the skill use without skill thread.

Should characters always have a chance at succeeding? EG you plan for a mission to planet X to invade a computer system there, but of the characters the players make up, not a darn 1 has computer prog/rep as a skill. Would you just drop in an NPC that could do it for them, or give them a side way to get said info? Or would they just fail, cause of poor planning?

To me, the part of the book, that says characters should fail now and again i take to heart, and play it out that there will always be times that they won't or cannot succeed....
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[Akari]

If you feel generous, remind them that they might have missed something obvious. If you feel especially generous, allow them a medium Knowledge roll to remind them that they have no idea how to slice computers.

If they *still* insist on going there, perhaps they might think about forcing somebody at the location to retrieve the information for them, but they can not make sure that he won't try to sabotage them...

Yes, Player characters should fail now and then, but only if its due to poor planning or incredible unluck. If the plan is well thought of and everybody is prepared, almost everything is possible in the Star Wars universe. At least I like to run it that way...

[Boomer]

To me, this is all about how difficult the computer is to slice into, and if their plan even involves one of them slicing into the computer.

I would never just drop in an NPC to do it for them. They want a slicer, they can find one themselves.

But if their plan involves one of them trying to do it, no, there is never an "auto-fail" just as there is never an "auto-success". It is just nigh-impossibly difficult, so that is where I set the target number they have to get.
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My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Chabit Rane]

Just remember, players usually hate the words "you cannot do that". I think that should apply here as well. give them the chance, even if it is a remote chance. It does not have to be a normal diificulty (ie., add penalties if it is called for, etc).

But let them roll & see where the dice go.

[Jedi Skyler]

I agree. Never tell them, "You can't do that." Perhaps ask them, "Do you REALLY want to try that?" When they insist that they do, go ahead and let them know the difficulty number up front. They might gripe about it, but tell them like it is. "You DON'T have a slicer, you DON'T have anyone with Computer Programming/Repair, and you DON'T have a clue how to do this. But go ahead; try it anyway. You can ALWAYS try..."

And if they DO try, well, you have a whole platoon of stormtroopers just waiting for that intruder alert to go off so they can strut their stuff.

Sometimes a player/group trying to pull this is simply trying to test the limits of what they can get away with and not. Try to keep that in mind when they do...

[Boomer]

That's also something else, thank Skyler for bringing it up.

When you simply say "no you can't" you also bar players from the consequences of failure.
Sometimes you just have to let them blunder, and send after them the troopers, the hunters, the rancor, the angry Jedi, the battlecruisers, and the metal eating termites, and let them feel first hand what being stupid gets them.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Jedi Skyler]

[gollummen]

[Volar the Healer]

Sounds like a great adventure hook!
I know this guy who knows people who knows a slicer...
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Know Jesus, Know Peace.
No Jesus, No Peace

[Robert]

I think this discussion might have one hook:

Should they always succed or should they always be allowed try?

I dont think characters should suceed at anything they try. This takes the fun out of different characters, getting better and planning ahead. It takes the risk out of play and imho therefore the fun.

Characters should always be allowed to try. This does not only mean trying something where they don´t have a skill. It also means trying where they are good and have skill. Trying means the dice decide whether and how good or bad you suceed. This brings in risk - for advanced characters as well as for starting ones. It makes planning ahead meaningful, as this is a way to lower the difficulty to suceed. It brings tension with it and therefore fun.

As for the example - slicing into a computer network. In SWD6 there are slicing sticks whch can do the work for you, so it can be a little bit easier. But in reality it isnt the question should they be allowed to try, it is the question how well are they prepared? They could prepare and hire a npc slicer - newbie players might get some hints from the GM or even a npc for free - but if they arent prepared and dont think ahead their chances to succed are worse and thats their fault.

Trying also means roleplaying and adventuring. They could either just say:" Hey Gm, le´me roll streetwise, im searching for a slicer" or they could roleplay this scene out. Roleplaying influences the difficulty through the decision of the GM. "Set a DC, roll the Dice" is not only a rule of thumb. It is the rule of good roleplaying. What influences the DC? The GMs judgement of players behavior. Who should tell if they succed or not? The Dice, for there is no tension without them and therefore no fun.

At least in my opinion.

[K_Feldspar]

Certainly they can try anything. This might even be a use for a force point. If they fail anyways that just makes it more fun because you get to chase them with bad nasties. It's fun to make the bad nasties.

Here's a good 'bad nasty' idea. Say they fail miserably to hack this computer system, and that causes the Imperials to investigate the system. They find out that there was actually this criminal org that sliced the system already. So the Imps kick off the criminal org, and assume that the pitiful attempt by the PCs was the org making a dumb mistake.

Now you don't have to worry about highly organized and well mannered Imperials. You have to worry about dirty, low-down, scum bags that will stop at nothing to see you dead because they got kicked off their sweet computer.
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"I don't believe it!"

"That is why you fail."

[garhkal]

[Robert]

Found in Crackens Rebel Field Guide.

I think i gpt your question now. I dont think the chances of sucess should be altered directly just because they have a low skill code. What can and maybe should be altered is the setting. Insert some opportunities to roleplay through some of the obstacles, get allies, tools or some other help. This way you have a realistical, maybe even rules supported argument to lower the DC and still show them: Hard it is to suceed. If they dont take the chances the GM offers them and they also have zero ideas by themselves - well sometimes nearly impossible it is to suceed.

SWD6 is cinematic - spending a force point alters the chance of sucess so dramatically that sometimes even for low skill guys there is no need to find a clever way through obstacles. But this is one of the points where they shouldn´t get the FP back. Clever thinking should count in - not only having much dice or spending a FP/CPs and rolling high. And if they rely on that and keep behaving like duds i am malign enough to insert some "additional" obstacles.

I often have ruled things automatically happen without the need of a roll. Sometimes it was a success, sometimes it was a hindrance. Thats part of roleplaying. But in most situations i try not to forget to give the players a chance and let them roll the dice. Don´t forget - the dice help you judging the outcome of a situation and give players the feeling they have influence in the game. Not rolling means the GM decides whether my actions work out or not - that can be very frustrating for the players. But well. too much dicerolling is also. It is easier to allow auto-sucess than rule auto-failure, especially after some dice-orgy-fight, if you know what you mean. After a climactic fight i often have my players run over some enemies/obstacles they knew are there knowiing playing them out only slows down the pace of game and is plain irrelevant und nearly impossible to fail. I think a good mix of both - auto-sucess and additional hindrance - is best as i tried to outline with the above.

[garhkal]

[Boomer]

If you know where to find a slicer, you know where to find these.
_________________
My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!