| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:35 am Post subject: |
 |
|
I GM/play at cons a lot more than i do home games, but i have still gmed home campaigns, though only 2 in the past 10 years... Some of the duty stations i have been at, i am lucky if i even have 1 gamer who is not a MMORPG person or Magic the addiction player....
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | I GM/play at cons a lot more than i do home games, but i have still gmed home campaigns, though only 2 in the past 10 years... Some of the duty stations i have been at, i am lucky if i even have 1 gamer who is not a MMORPG person or Magic the addiction player.... |
I hear ya, I spent 12 years in the Air Force and was only able to set up 3 (very short) home campaigns during that time. (getting married and having kids didn't help.) Being an officer, the whole fraternization thing didn't help, either.
But let me ask you this: If you did play/GM more home games and had a regular crew playing the game every week, would you alter your GMing style?
A question for the community at large: Given garkhal's PC-killing ratio (~10%), is it okay for at least one PC to die every 10th game session?
Not trying to judge your style, garkhal, just using it as a benchmark and am curious about what might be acceptable to other folks.
_________________
Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rerun941 wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I GM/play at cons a lot more than i do home games, but i have still gmed home campaigns, though only 2 in the past 10 years... Some of the duty stations i have been at, i am lucky if i even have 1 gamer who is not a MMORPG person or Magic the addiction player.... |
I hear ya, I spent 12 years in the Air Force and was only able to set up 3 (very short) home campaigns during that time. (getting married and having kids didn't help.) Being an officer, the whole fraternization thing didn't help, either.
But let me ask you this: If you did play/GM more home games and had a regular crew playing the game every week, would you alter your GMing style?
A question for the community at large: Given garkhal's PC-killing ratio (~10%), is it okay for at least one PC to die every 10th game session?
Not trying to judge your style, garkhal, just using it as a benchmark and am curious about what might be acceptable to other folks. |
I dont have a given mortality ratio. I have a (unjustified if you ask me) reputation for being a 'hard' GM. While I do not agree I can be rather merciless towards the players if they act stupidly.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Critias
Ensign
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 34
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
See, the few times I've run convention games (which hasn't been Star Wars, if that somehow makes any difference), I've gone out of my way not to kill any PC's...with as expensive as GenCon game tickets are, the last thing I want to do is off someone and make them quit playing early.
I'm much more likely to work with a character death in a regular face-to-face, week-by-week, game, where they can sit down with me and cook up a new character and we can weave the whole thing into the story smoothly and keep on having a good time...taking someone's money at a convention and then ganking them early in the game, when they're often just out to learn the system and get their money's worth, just always struck me as counterproductive. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Critias wrote: | | See, the few times I've run convention games (which hasn't been Star Wars, if that somehow makes any difference), I've gone out of my way not to kill any PC's...with as expensive as GenCon game tickets are, the last thing I want to do is off someone and make them quit playing early. |
WoW! THat is compltely differernt from my experience with cons. All the events I've seen give the PCs some goal to accomplish and the AGms let the dice fall where they may.
In fact, GMss would probably get into hot water for fuging, since tornament play had rewards for "best player" or "best group". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Rerun941"] | garhkal wrote: | I
A question for the community at large: Given garkhal's PC-killing ratio (~10%), is it okay for at least one PC to die every 10th game session?
Not trying to judge your style, garkhal, just using it as a benchmark and am curious about what might be acceptable to other folks. |
IMO the answer is...maybe.
There are just too many variables to give a simple "yes or no" answer.
First off, do you mean in general RPGing or are you refering to D6 Star Wars games speficially? I'll accpet a much higher PC mortaility rate in somethuing like Morrow Project or Pendragon than in something like Star Wars or Marvel Super Heroes.
Secondly, the reason why a crharacter is getting killed about every tenth game session plays a factor. IS it just like of the dice, or are the PCs playing russian roulette? Is it the same player who keeps getting killed?
If a PC is continually doing something stupid that7s one thing. If the GM is throwing Darth Vader clones at the group each week, that's something else.
But assuming you mean't D6 Star Wars, I'd say no, 10% is too high, and I woulld look at the reason why and try to reduce itt, and not necessarily by fudging. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
rerun941 wrote:
| Quote: | | A question for the community at large: Given garkhal's PC-killing ratio (~10%), is it okay for at least one PC to die every 10th game session? |
It depends. Certainly some genres and game systems lend themselves to facilitating higher rates of character death. Traditional Call of Cthulhu is reknown for high rates of character loss through death or insanity.
In Star Wars I would expect a lower ratio, but again that might depend. Is the play classic space opera, a gritty Spec Forces campaign, or a Clone Wars military oriented campaign. The latter two might have significantly higher rates of character loss.
But for me the key question is: are the players (and the GM) having fun? Whatever rate of character loss promotes fun for the GM and player is, for me by definition, okay. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Critias
Ensign
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 34
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| atgxtg wrote: | | Critias wrote: | | See, the few times I've run convention games (which hasn't been Star Wars, if that somehow makes any difference), I've gone out of my way not to kill any PC's...with as expensive as GenCon game tickets are, the last thing I want to do is off someone and make them quit playing early. |
WoW! THat is compltely differernt from my experience with cons. All the events I've seen give the PCs some goal to accomplish and the AGms let the dice fall where they may.
In fact, GMss would probably get into hot water for fuging, since tornament play had rewards for "best player" or "best group". |
I've never run anything where prizes were involved, if that makes any difference.
I just see it as folks flying/driving a long distance, shelling out mega-bucks for a hotel, food, convention pass, and paying money specifically to get to play in a game I'm running. To me, the point is to give them their money's worth by letting them have a good time, learn the basics of the system, and sling some dice for as close as I can get to their fully allotted time. GenCon is expensive. Dragon*Con is expensive. Maybe it's "unprofessional" of me or something, but I don't want to rip someone off after they've shelled out all that money to try out a new game.
If someone does something totally crazy (like pulled a pin on a grenade and dropped it at their feet), sure, I guess I'd kill 'em. But when someone just makes a rookie mistake, misunderstands a rule, gets hit by an unlucky die roll, or whatever...? With a character I made, so it's not like it's even their fault if a character's no good at something?
There's no way I'm gonna off 'em fifteen minutes into a game, and make them sit there for the other three and a half hours, while I run stuff with all their buddies, y'know? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rerun941 wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I GM/play at cons a lot more than i do home games, but i have still gmed home campaigns, though only 2 in the past 10 years... Some of the duty stations i have been at, i am lucky if i even have 1 gamer who is not a MMORPG person or Magic the addiction player.... |
I hear ya, I spent 12 years in the Air Force and was only able to set up 3 (very short) home campaigns during that time. (getting married and having kids didn't help.) Being an officer, the whole fraternization thing didn't help, either.
But let me ask you this: If you did play/GM more home games and had a regular crew playing the game every week, would you alter your GMing style?. |
Nope. if anything i am a little more lienient with the con games than i am at home..
| Quote: | Secondly, the reason why a crharacter is getting killed about every tenth game session plays a factor. IS it just like of the dice, or are the PCs playing russian roulette? Is it the same player who keeps getting killed?
If a PC is continually doing something stupid that7s one thing. If the GM is throwing Darth Vader clones at the group each week, that's something else. |
Lets see. Death 1-4 came about due to 2 pcs of 5 were in prison, with all their gear on a table next o a rickity wall. Other 3 were outside. The ones outside got rumbled by security forces and 1 of them dropped in combat round 3 (4 stuns!). The wookie pc decides to burn a force point and grab the 2 nearest stormies and slam them into th wall hoping to open a hole for the ones inside to possibily get out.
He brawls ok, but flubbs BOTH damage rolls (13, 15 iirc) and the stormies soak it though ST2 takes a wound. Next round, both imps for their action indicate they are activating their grenades (HE) and holding them inhand with the deadman switch activated (they won init).. the wookie pc AGAIN decides to smash them through the wall.
At this time i remind him when he looked through the 3 holes (about a silver dollar size) he saw a table, with pc 1's jetpack, 2 thermal detonators and all 9 grenades on the table, along with PC2's EXPLOSIVE kit (12kg of detonite). IF he smashes the imps through the wall and either get a ko or worse, their deadman switches WILL activate and with all those explosives in a confined area, it won't mattr your strength you will die.
Well, he did it anyway, and called on the darkside as well to survive.. 4 dead pcs, 1 enraged and turning to the dark side wookie pc.
PC death #5 and 6 were a pair of Fighter jocks (two seater Y wing) flying at flank speed toward the bridge of a Vic star destroyer... flubbed both maneuvering rolls (one to avoid crashing and the other to avoid being shot with an ion cannon) and went splat... Neither stood a chance of escaping.
Pc death 7, was from a bounty hunter NPC calling his shot to the pc's backpack, thinking to 'show him who's boss. Well pc reminded me he kept 3kg of thermite plasticine in it.......
PC death 8 was a PC bounty hunter jet packing through a forest and getting HIS jet pack holled (leaking fuel). He jet packs back, arcing in big curve home rather than going straight. His jet pack went boom when he landed.....
Pc death 9 and 10 were from flying a speeder bike though a smoke screen into a wall, while the 'passenger' was reading a large backpack filled with detonite and other explosives..
I forgot what pc 11 through 13's death were. PC 14 died from an imp moff's hired guard spending a force point (him versus 7 pcs) and hitting the pc in the head... damage was 20 over the 'death level'.
PC 15 iirc was from getting a Proton torp into his custom Z-95 from the rear.... had already lost his shields....
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Good discussion guys, thank you.
garkhal, you have reminded me why PCs should not play with explosives. 
_________________
Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mdlake
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 65
Location: Montclair, NJ
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Critias wrote: | as expensive as GenCon game tickets are, the last thing I want to do is off someone and make them quit playing early.
I'm much more likely to work with a character death in a regular face-to-face, week-by-week, game, where they can sit down with me and cook up a new character and we can weave the whole thing into the story smoothly and keep on having a good time |
Not cheating a player out of his con experience is a valid concern. I'd suggest the last thing you want to do, however, is bore them. Death can be boring, but doesn't have to be, if you plan it right. Many players are okay with dying, even eager to die, as long as that death plays an integral part in the story. To illustrate: I ran one adventure with a monster stolen from "The Hidden," inhabiting its victim and leaving its previous victim's skin behind. The first victim didn't get his until two hours in (Gotta give the customer his money's worth!), and he had a half hour or so to play the monster before he had to pick a new victim and bow out of the game. The death rate accelerated through the remainder of the four-hour session. Not one player left the table; now in on the secret, they all wanted to see how it turned out, including the first victim, who had 90 minutes' down time.
(I won't run scored and tournament games because I refuse to sacrifice that kind of dramatic control to someone's concern for his score. Nor do I want to play in those games. Point-whoring poisons RPGs.)
In weekly tabletop games, I look for reasons not to kill PCs because designing replacements is such a hassle. The replacement rarely fits in quite right: the skill balance goes wonky, other PCs have already established foibles meant to spark with the departed, NPCs whose sole purpose was to provide hooks to the departed can't always conveniently vanish, I have to duplicate effort in designing new hooks...a swarm of small but annoying dislocations.
Further, my current group is inclined to develop strong attachments to their ongoing stories. Happily, knowing this, they also know better than to go in for the "six pounds of C4 in my backpack" lifestyle. With a different group, I'd be more casual about death.
Sometimes putting up with those dislocations beats the alternative, like a player who no longer likes his character, or breaking the illusion of danger, so PCs die in my weekly games. Not often. Death has serious repercussions in a campaign, but hardly any in a one-shot, wherein survivors cease to play at the end of the session anyway. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey guys/gals the last few posts have been very informative. Thanks for sharing. 
Here is what I have learned,
from gharkal - players should not play with explosives if the players or the characters don't understand demolitions. 
from Critias - I am not the only one who doesn't enjoy play-for-points Con play.
from mdlake - I am not the only one whose SW group likes " strong attachments to their ongoing stories"
A number of folks mentioned penalizing "stupid" actions by the PCs. I'm going to start a thread asking how people treat stupid actions by PCs. Type to you there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rerun941 wrote: | Good discussion guys, thank you.
garkhal, you have reminded me why PCs should not play with explosives. |
I have had plenty of pcs play with explosives.. heck one is at 9 or so D in demo.. but i have had several BIG fubars with them.
| Quote: | Here is what I have learned,
from gharkal - players should not play with explosives if the players or the characters don't understand demolitions |
Oh, they knew them all right. just ignored them.
after reviewing my notes on some stuff, i remember where pc 11-13's death came from. Again it had to do with explosives.. One pc got hit by a plex missile (during a surprise round), and took incap from it.. As i was going to all the others on the table, she asked
"what will happen to the 3 kilos of thermite plasticine (which is ACTIVATED by high levels of heat, which to me would include any explosion around you)..
I gave her 3 chances to take back that statement (as iirc she was into her 4th game, but she (bless her heart) kept on me... So i had them all go off... 2 other pc's were around here and 1 even was willing to die due to the "being near the explosive carrier'....
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
So walking point is not the most dangerous spot if you are running in gharkal's game. 
I think I would invest in an explosives detector before deciding who I wanted to walk near and how near is near.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: |
| Quote: | Secondly, the reason why a crharacter is getting killed about every tenth game session plays a factor. IS it just like of the dice, or are the PCs playing russian roulette? Is it the same player who keeps getting killed?
If a PC is continually doing something stupid that7s one thing. If the GM is throwing Darth Vader clones at the group each week, that's something else. |
Lets see. .... |
Thanks garhkal,
THat is why I said cursumstances play a big factor. It7s hard to judge if the moetailty rate is too high without knowing something about the campaign.
I've seen grops die off from sheer stupidity (for example: one group charged a fort, right in the face of heaqvy MG fire; the ones who reached the fort were shocked that the gate was barred, and got mowed down when the left the protection of the walls and ran away from the fort), and just bad die rolls (for example: in one game the GM was on a hot astreak and was mauling a group of 4 experienced PCs with a squad of B1 battle droids) .Neither of those were the GM's fault, and only the former was the PCs fault.
I7ve also seen games where the GM just overwhelmed the PCs, with each batle seeming like a reenactment of Geonosis. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
