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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Hehe, your going for #4 every time you play..otherwise combat would just be death and horrible dismemberment every time. Not very Star War-ish. One grenade/mine and peoples limbs and intestines start flying everywhere... |
Not quite. Realistically greandes don7t have a lot of explosive force, but instead do most of thier damage through shrapnel.
TO be honest most RPGs probably make weapons a little too effective. In the real world, over 80% of the shots fired in combat miss, and killing someone instantly with one shot from a small arm is virtually impossible.
Star Wars does give the PCs a lot of breaks to reflect that they are heroes
, but that is not becuase they downgraded the firepower of the weapons. It is becuase PCs get a big edge in stats, skills, character points, and force points.
THe main trouble with high rates of fire is the difficulty in keeping the shots on target. Usually the first couple of shots are on target, but after that the kick will throw trhe weapon off target, wasting a few rounds.
One thing that I am worrried about with the doubling system is that without a cap of some sort, a light powered weapon with a high ROF will be able to threaten craft that should be pretty much immune to such low powered shots. For example, taking out a tank with a Z-6 rotary cannon. |
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Esoomian
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Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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If it was only variable convergance wouldn't you then have to roll a really high to hit to actually get the damage bonus?
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Madwand
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Joined: 06 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
One thing that I am worrried about with the doubling system is that without a cap of some sort, a light powered weapon with a high ROF will be able to threaten craft that should be pretty much immune to such low powered shots. For example, taking out a tank with a Z-6 rotary cannon. |
I should note that this house rule doesn't actually increase the damage that existing weapons do. They only fit such weapons into the "combined firepower" framework by allowing the user to move a few of the damage dice to fire control instead. If you want more damage... you need more weapons firing together (and you'll still do less damage than using the existing rules, usually). |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
One thing that I am worrried about with the doubling system is that without a cap of some sort, a light powered weapon with a high ROF will be able to threaten craft that should be pretty much immune to such low powered shots. For example, taking out a tank with a Z-6 rotary cannon. |
Then put a max damage cap on it.
As it stands, in the SPARKS D6 world, i can get 25 people together with a blastr rifle and shoot at a space transport. Not only will we get 6d to hit for scaling, but we get 6d bonus to hit for the fact we have 25 people. AND when we do hit (12d bonus on top of what skill we already have is imo a guarenteed hit), we do +6d damage which offsets the -6d scale diff.
I get 400, i have the 12d bonus needed to offset the 12d penalty shootinng a cap ship. WTF>
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Madwand
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | As it stands, in the SPARKS D6 world, i can get 25 people together with a blastr rifle and shoot at a space transport. Not only will we get 6d to hit for scaling, but we get 6d bonus to hit for the fact we have 25 people. AND when we do hit (12d bonus on top of what skill we already have is imo a guarenteed hit), we do +6d damage which offsets the -6d scale diff.
I get 400, i have the 12d bonus needed to offset the 12d penalty shootinng a cap ship. WTF> |
I'm not sure where this math is coming from. Are you getting these numbers from existing rules, or my house rule?
If the latter... your math is off. Obviously you do get the scaling bonus to hit, but 25 people only gives you a +4D+2 bonus that may be spread among hit or damage. Is that too much? I'm not sure. It still isn't enough to hurt a Krayt dragon effectively, or take out many transports. You can definitely put some hurt on something with that... but then, it's the combined efforts of 25 people. That should be able to accomplish something. It's also a lot less than the normal linking rules allow. |
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Hehe, your going for #4 every time you play..otherwise combat would just be death and horrible dismemberment every time. Not very Star War-ish. One grenade/mine and peoples limbs and intestines start flying everywhere... |
Not quite. Realistically greandes don7t have a lot of explosive force, but instead do most of thier damage through shrapnel.
TO be honest most RPGs probably make weapons a little too effective. In the real world, over 80% of the shots fired in combat miss, and killing someone instantly with one shot from a small arm is virtually impossible.
Star Wars does give the PCs a lot of breaks to reflect that they are heroes
, but that is not becuase they downgraded the firepower of the weapons. It is becuase PCs get a big edge in stats, skills, character points, and force points.
THe main trouble with high rates of fire is the difficulty in keeping the shots on target. Usually the first couple of shots are on target, but after that the kick will throw trhe weapon off target, wasting a few rounds.
One thing that I am worrried about with the doubling system is that without a cap of some sort, a light powered weapon with a high ROF will be able to threaten craft that should be pretty much immune to such low powered shots. For example, taking out a tank with a Z-6 rotary cannon. |
I dont know what fireworks you are talking about...shrapnel can actually do quite a bit of damage including what I was talking about in above.
I havent seen any RPG with a lethality/damage rate even close to realism, save perhaps Phoenix Command (which based its damage ratings from US Army tests on pigs IIRC). We dont play with Character points as 'saves' and even then lethality aint that high. Sure, characters dont usually walk away undamaged from a hit from and ordinary 'pistol', but 'wounded' is just a flesh wound. But the problem of lethality in SW is not really that big of an issue IMO. Bar the blasterproof Wookie most characters will go down with a little effort (even the STR 4D armoured Bounty Hunter). My only issue is that theres such a big difference between a STR 2D and a STR 4D character.
You seem to confuse lethality with precision and influence of combat situation conditions. I real life a lot of the fire is directed as supressive fire which will mean low to no actual hits. As real life combatants are more careful of their lifes than mosts characters, meaning that often the focus is first not getting hit before actually hitting the enemy.
Automatic fire is usually used in close combat or as supressing fire at longer ranges. I was in the Arctic Rangers in my military training, and if someone used automatic fire at ranges over 50 m or so they would get smacked on the head..  So, of course you are right that the problem is keeping it on target.
The problem with automatic fire (and fire linked weapons) dealing heavy damage even though the individual shots are really 'weak' (compared to a tank) is a problem I have tried to adress. However, I dont want to get into Phoenix Command-land but instead keep it fun and easy. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | If it was only variable convergance wouldn't you then have to roll a really high to hit to actually get the damage bonus? |
This is actually a bit what I have been thinking about, and for automatic weapons as well. You start with a small bonus to hit (Y=for firing several shots) but if you beat the target number by X+Y points your damage rating goes up depending on RoF. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Madwand wrote: |
I'm not sure where this math is coming from. Are you getting these numbers from existing rules, or my house rule?
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Its from a chart we use in the Sparks force 7 Starwars campaign.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Madwand wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: |
One thing that I am worrried about with the doubling system is that without a cap of some sort, a light powered weapon with a high ROF will be able to threaten craft that should be pretty much immune to such low powered shots. For example, taking out a tank with a Z-6 rotary cannon. |
I should note that this house rule doesn't actually increase the damage that existing weapons do. They only fit such weapons into the "combined firepower" framework by allowing the user to move a few of the damage dice to fire control instead. If you want more damage... you need more weapons firing together (and you'll still do less damage than using the existing rules, usually). |
According to your initial post, the bonus die can be taken as extra attack dice or extra damage dice:
| Quote: |
When fire-linking weapons, every doubling of the number of linked weapons adds +1D damage or +1D fire control. |
So, in theory, someone using a Z-6 could take all 7D as a damage bonus and suddenly have a weapon that can threaten a walker, tank, or starfighter.
That is why I suggest a cap of some sort. For example, the max bonus one can take is equal to thier skill score. That way, only characters with very high Skill codes can control autoweapons well enough to get the full bonus. For instance, someone would need a 7D skill to be able to get the full 7D bonus from a Z-6 on full auto. For most soldiers (4D skill), "spray and pray" would waqste a lot of ammo. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I dont know what fireworks you are talking about...shrapnel can actually do quite a bit of damage including what I was talking about in above. |
Not from grandes. Greande snhrapel is actually very low powerred, and has poor penetration. THe reason why greades are effective in real life is that they throw off a lot of fragments, and that moden solders have limited protection. If modern soldiers had something like Stromtrooper armor, they'd be fiarly immune to the shrpnel effecrt of frag grenades. Now shrapnel from artillery is another matter.
| Quote: |
You seem to confuse lethality with precision and influence of combat situation conditions. I real life a lot of the fire is directed as supressive fire which will mean low to no actual hits. As real life combatants are more careful of their lifes than mosts characters, meaning that often the focus is first not getting hit before actually hitting the enemy. |
I7m not talking about misses, I'm talking about the lethality. Take a look at real world battlefield casualty data from any war. What you see is that the ast majorty of people hit are wounded, not killed.
If you look at the fatalities, you will also notice that the maority of falties occured AFTER the battle was over.
I used to work in the Trama Center, and with medical attention over 95% of the people brought in with gunshot wounds, survived.
What it is easy to do is to wound someone in such a way that they might die later, or so they will looe consciousness and be out of the fight. THe problem is in doing it instantly. Typically it takes a few seconds for the target to "bleed out". Modern police forces now train thier men to be aware of that, so that they won7t let thier guard down after shooting a culprit.
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Automatic fire is usually used in close combat or as supressing fire at longer ranges. I was in the Arctic Rangers in my military training, and if someone used automatic fire at ranges over 50 m or so they would get smacked on the head.. So, of course you are right that the problem is keeping it on target. |
Yeah. THaqt is also why many newer assault rfiles and SMGs have a autoburst feature.
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The problem with automatic fire (and fire linked weapons) dealing heavy damage even though the individual shots are really 'weak' (compared to a tank) is a problem I have tried to adress. However, I dont want to get into Phoenix Command-land but instead keep it fun and easy. |
Yeah, tehncially, using the RAW or even this option, someone could combine a thousand tennis ball launchers for an insane amount of damage--enough to penetrate a blast door or tank.
I7ve been toying with a rule where attackswith a damage code half or less of the vehicles BODY STR are ingored due to armor. For example, an AAT (Body 5D walker ascale) might have 5D armor and 5D Hull (10D character scale) so anything that does 5D (character scale) or less "bounces" off the armor. Autofire weapons wouldn't be able to damage arored vehciles unless thier base damage was over the thrreshold. So a light or medium rrepeating blaster (assuming reduced damage and a autofre bonus) woould not threaten an AAT, but a Heavy reapting blaster just might. |
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Madwand
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | According to your initial post, the bonus die can be taken as extra attack dice or extra damage dice:
| Quote: |
When fire-linking weapons, every doubling of the number of linked weapons adds +1D damage or +1D fire control. |
So, in theory, someone using a Z-6 could take all 7D as a damage bonus and suddenly have a weapon that can threaten a walker, tank, or starfighter.
That is why I suggest a cap of some sort. For example, the max bonus one can take is equal to thier skill score. That way, only characters with very high Skill codes can control autoweapons well enough to get the full bonus. For instance, someone would need a 7D skill to be able to get the full 7D bonus from a Z-6 on full auto. For most soldiers (4D skill), "spray and pray" would waqste a lot of ammo. |
You have misunderstood my suggested rule. The quoted reference to fire-linking weapons does not refer to repeating blasters. Repeating blasters are to be treated as if they were linked weapons of a lower damage die. I give a specific example for the E-Web: If you assume that this weapon fires 4 shots for every burst, that would normally give a 2D bonus if the weapon was fire linked. The E-web is functionally equivalent to 4 fire-linked 6D weapons. Thus, you can have 2D fire control, 6D damage, or 0D fire control, 8D damage (the normal effect), or anything in between (in increments of 1D). These rules don't make repeating blasters any more damaging by themselves, but they do make them consistent with the rest of the "combined firepower" house rule. |
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Jedi AlanRocks
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Joined: 12 Jul 2009
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Dasharr wrote: | | I could be misremembering, but didn't the GG6 rules (2nd ed version) limit the fire-link bonus to 2d (for 3 weapons)? . |
You are correct sir. Maybe the maximum limit should be raised to 4 for the X wing, but linking 10 blasters is impossible according to the rules as I know them
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Madwand wrote: |
You have misunderstood my suggested rule. The quoted reference to fire-linking weapons does not refer to repeating blasters. Repeating blasters are to be treated as if they were linked weapons of a lower damage die. I give a specific example for the E-Web: If you assume that this weapon fires 4 shots for every burst, that would normally give a 2D bonus if the weapon was fire linked. The E-web is functionally equivalent to 4 fire-linked 6D weapons. Thus, you can have 2D fire control, 6D damage, or 0D fire control, 8D damage (the normal effect), or anything in between (in increments of 1D). These rules don't make repeating blasters any more damaging by themselves, but they do make them consistent with the rest of the "combined firepower" house rule. |
No, I think I got your suggested rule down, but it comes down to the rate of fire. If the weapon is the core book have rates of fire consistent with thier real world analogues, in the hundreds of shots per minte, then they work out okay.I7m not worried about the weapons that were already written up in offcial D6 products.
But, with something that has a very high rate of fire, like the Z-6 rotary cannon with it's 10,000 shots per miute, the doubling method is going to result in overkill without some sort of cap. 166 shots per second is a lot of doublings (over 7). Even if the Z-6 does only 4D or 5D to star with, a 7D autofire bonus would make the weapon a tank and starfighter killer. OD Fire control and 12D damage is nothing to sneeze at. |
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think we have to let the 166 shots/second craziness for the z-6 go.
Its totally silly to begin with, even with just a tiny bit of recoil, and the recent SWTOR trailer certainly does not support that idea.
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Madwand
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | No, I think I got your suggested rule down, but it comes down to the rate of fire. If the weapon is the core book have rates of fire consistent with thier real world analogues, in the hundreds of shots per minte, then they work out okay.I7m not worried about the weapons that were already written up in offcial D6 products.
But, with something that has a very high rate of fire, like the Z-6 rotary cannon with it's 10,000 shots per minute, the doubling method is going to result in overkill without some sort of cap. 166 shots per second is a lot of doublings (over 7). Even if the Z-6 does only 4D or 5D to star with, a 7D autofire bonus would make the weapon a tank and starfighter killer. OD Fire control and 12D damage is nothing to sneeze at. |
Ok, I'm not sure how this keeps happening, but it seems you still haven't understood my house rule. Under no conditions does the damage ever go beyond the weapons base damage using just one repeating weapon. 7D autofire bonus? Do. Not. Care. The most you can have, with a weapon that does 5D damage, is 5D damage. No shooting down starfighters here. In theory, you could also do 5D fire control/0D damage... but here we see why 10,000 shots per minute with such a low-damage weapon is ridiculous. I'm really not sure where you got the idea that the autofire bonus could allow a weapon to do extra damage beyond what it was capable of, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about this. |
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