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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 164
Location: Southampton, England
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 Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | From the description I read in the Thrawn Trilogy Book, the quote talks about Luke getting tunnel vision. I'd almost say that's a penalty to attack/defend against opponents not targeted by the power. |
I like that. I might just suggest that to the group. We wrote combat sense as a power out of the game completely during the last re-write because we couldn't work out how to do it in a balanced fashion. I miss the power however and have always wanted it back.
Of course, for those of you have haven't ventured as far from the base rules as I you could replicate this quite easily just by making an individual have to keep the power up instead of making it last a flat one minute. |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | | Quote: | | From the description I read in the Thrawn Trilogy Book, the quote talks about Luke getting tunnel vision. I'd almost say that's a penalty to attack/defend against opponents not targeted by the power. |
I like that. I might just suggest that to the group. We wrote combat sense as a power out of the game completely during the last re-write because we couldn't work out how to do it in a balanced fashion. I miss the power however and have always wanted it back.
Of course, for those of you have haven't ventured as far from the base rules as I you could replicate this quite easily just by making an individual have to keep the power up instead of making it last a flat one minute. |
Potential re-write: (Off the top of my head)
Sense Difficulty: Moderate for one opponent, modified by +3 for each additional opponent the Jedi wishes to defend against. (Same as original)
This power may be kept up
Required powers: Life Detection, Danger Sense (Same as original)
Effect: Combat sense allows a Jedi to focus on the battle at hand. Everything else becomes dulled and muted as the Jedi’s senses are all turned toward the combat occurring around him. All targeted opponents become mentally highlighted in the Jedi’s mind, enhancing his ability to attack and defend. In game terms, the Jedi gains important advantages.
First, the Jedi may choose when he wishes to act that round—no initiative rolls are necessary while the power is in effect. If more than one Jedi is using the power, whoever rolled highest when invoking the power determines when he wishes to act.
Second, the Jedi’s attack and defense rolls against targeted opponents are increased by +2D. All other opponents are -1D to attack and defend ("Everything else becomes dulled and muted" from above.) The Jedi may switch targets without a roll once each round, but the total number of targets highlighted must remain the same, unless the Jedi wishes to re-activate (reroll) the power. This power does incur MAPs.
In practice: the Jedi is attacked by a squad of 6 stormtroopers. He activates his power against two of them. to attack/defend against those two is +2D. He has -1D to defend against the remaining four stormtroopers. If he kills one, he can switch his focus to one of the other four stormtroopers. If he wants to target three at that point, he must reroll the power.
Note: May want to consider boosting the benefit to +3D to offset the MAP imposed?
_________________
Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | Here's a spreadsheet I worked up...
Jedi vs Melee
I'll add some commentary tomorrow when I'm not half-asleep  |
Meanwhile... back at the original thread...
What does this spreadsheet tell us? With the cheapest advancement and the best combat conditions (for both sides) the Jedi will most likely kick the Swordsman's butt.
But look at the more realistic scenario... by eliminating the teacher just HALF the time and forcing the Jedi to activate LS Combat, Combat Sense and make a LS parry (the typical combat scenario), the odds are fairly even. In fact, they may have tipped AGAINST the Jedi due to the Moderate Control and Moderate Sense rolls to activate the Force Powers with just using 3D. If the Jedi fails either one of those rolls, he could really be in for a world of hurt.
As a player, if I build a melee type he's going to be closer to the stats at the top. As a GM, I generally gravitate more towards Jedi with stats (and advancement) towards the bottom.
Note that this is a one-on-one combat scenario. Just adding one additional opponent for the Jedi removes his +2D Combat Sense bonus against that additional target.
_________________
Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Rerun,
Some things I think you are not considering:
1) Force Points
The JEdi probably has more FPs that the guy with the blaster. While not all Force Senstive character are Jedi, Jedi generally earn FPs faster than non-Jedi.
If the Jedi PC spends a FP, he gets to to go into "Power Up" mode and not only doubles his combat dice, but also doubles his Control for damage purposes.
2) Allies not Enemies
In your examples you are comparing one PC to another. That's not something that happens often. The problems with Jedi generally are not that they are unfiar in comparison to other PCs, but that they are overpowered in comparison to what we see on screen. Generally both PCs are on the same side and fighting against the bad guys (Empire, CIS, etc). Now when you put the pair together, what happens is that after a certain point, anything that has a chance of hitting the Jedi can usually wipe out the other PCs.
3) Jedi Get Hit & Die on Screen
I the game, with the effects of lightsaber combat, the chances of a PC Jedi getting hit by any minor character are virtually nil. "By the Book" JEdi would have kicked butt on Geonsis. Nor would Luke have gotten shot in the hand while rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt. In the game, the math against it worse than most lotteries.
In the films characters like Gen. Grievous and the Magnaguard Droids can actually beat Jedi. THat's not too likely in the RPG. Without Lightsaber Combat, they are not going to pose much of a threat to Jedi in the RPG.
4) Lightsabers Don't Always Cut People in Half
In the films we see several lightsaber duels. They are dramatic and tension building. People get hit, and usually get injured. First off, this would cause lightsaber combat to drop, leaving the character vulnerable to a coup de gras. If that were true, Luke would have won against Vader on Cloud City. Secondly the damage that lightsabers do in the game, make minor injuries impossible. While there are a few options and powers that can reduce kill results to maimings they do not fit in with the story we see on screen. Actually using some of those survival powers while Lightsaber Combat is up and after a few attacks and defensies is even more unlikely.
5 Era of Play
You constantly state that the Jedi should have problems finding (and/or keeping) a teacher. That might be true during the Rebellion era, but isn't necessarily the case for other eras. With the Jedi Temple o0r Academy around finding (and keeping) a teacher is easy. Even during the Rebellion era, teachers do exist, and once a PC Jedi finds one, he will probably be able to get training from that point on in the campaign.
6. Jedi vs. Swordsman
I don't see your point with this. Since there is little defense against a lightsaber, and the Jedi can parry (and destroy) the swordman's weapon, the rest is kind of moot.
7. Slow Development isn't no Development
Your argument rests heavily on Jedi being kept in check by slower development. What it ignores is that sooner or later, unless they get killed, they will develop. They powers that they get do more that add versatility, they also can counter many of the advantage that they guy with the high blaster skill once had.
8. Everyone has other things to do
You also make a point that Jedi would need to study other things besides Lightsaber and Force skills. You seem to imply that this puts them at disadvantage compared to other PCs. That isn't entirely true. First off other PCs need to learn things besides dodge and blaster. Secondly, because Force skills are so powerful and versatile, raising them is often more effective than raising several skills. For example, a character with magnify senses and instinctive astrogation will probably get more out of raising Sense 1 pip than by raising the Astrogation and Search skills. So by raising multiple abilities by raising one Force skill, the Jedi does more tan maintain parity. [/b] |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | cunning_kindred wrote: | | Quote: | | From the description I read in the Thrawn Trilogy Book, the quote talks about Luke getting tunnel vision. I'd almost say that's a penalty to attack/defend against opponents not targeted by the power. |
I like that. I might just suggest that to the group. We wrote combat sense as a power out of the game completely during the last re-write because we couldn't work out how to do it in a balanced fashion. I miss the power however and have always wanted it back.
Of course, for those of you have haven't ventured as far from the base rules as I you could replicate this quite easily just by making an individual have to keep the power up instead of making it last a flat one minute. |
Potential re-write: (Off the top of my head)
Sense Difficulty: Moderate for one opponent, modified by +3 for each additional opponent the Jedi wishes to defend against. (Same as original)
This power may be kept up
Required powers: Life Detection, Danger Sense (Same as original)
Effect: Combat sense allows a Jedi to focus on the battle at hand. Everything else becomes dulled and muted as the Jedi’s senses are all turned toward the combat occurring around him. All targeted opponents become mentally highlighted in the Jedi’s mind, enhancing his ability to attack and defend. In game terms, the Jedi gains important advantages.
First, the Jedi may choose when he wishes to act that round—no initiative rolls are necessary while the power is in effect. If more than one Jedi is using the power, whoever rolled highest when invoking the power determines when he wishes to act.
Second, the Jedi’s attack and defense rolls against targeted opponents are increased by +2D. All other opponents are -1D to attack and defend ("Everything else becomes dulled and muted" from above.) The Jedi may switch targets without a roll once each round, but the total number of targets highlighted must remain the same, unless the Jedi wishes to re-activate (reroll) the power. This power does incur MAPs.
In practice: the Jedi is attacked by a squad of 6 stormtroopers. He activates his power against two of them. to attack/defend against those two is +2D. He has -1D to defend against the remaining four stormtroopers. If he kills one, he can switch his focus to one of the other four stormtroopers. If he wants to target three at that point, he must reroll the power.
Note: May want to consider boosting the benefit to +3D to offset the MAP imposed? |
I like that rewrite though i would have made the penalties equal to the bonus -2d.
| Quote: | 2) Allies not Enemies
In your examples you are comparing one PC to another. That's not something that happens often. The problems with Jedi generally are not that they are unfiar in comparison to other PCs, but that they are overpowered in comparison to what we see on screen. Generally both PCs are on the same side and fighting against the bad guys (Empire, CIS, etc). Now when you put the pair together, what happens is that after a certain point, anything that has a chance of hitting the Jedi can usually wipe out the other PCs.
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That applies even with non jedi super powered gun bunnies.
| Quote: | 6. Jedi vs. Swordsman
I don't see your point with this. Since there is little defense against a lightsaber, and the Jedi can parry (and destroy) the swordman's weapon, the rest is kind of moot. |
| Quote: | | Whjo is to say the swordsman is parrying the saber's blade. IMO it is more likely he is blocking the HAND/arm the saber is in. |
| Quote: | 8. Everyone has other things to do
You also make a point that Jedi would need to study other things besides Lightsaber and Force skills. You seem to imply that this puts them at disadvantage compared to other PCs. That isn't entirely true. First off other PCs need to learn things besides dodge and blaster. Secondly, because Force skills are so powerful and versatile, raising them is often more effective than raising several skills. For example, a character with magnify senses and instinctive astrogation will probably get more out of raising Sense 1 pip than by raising the Astrogation and Search skills. So by raising multiple abilities by raising one Force skill, the Jedi does more tan maintain parity. [/b] |
Great point. I have seen some jedi players who did nothing but raise force powers and use enhance attrib, mag senses etc to equal the others.[/quote]
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Rerun,
Some things I think you are not considering: |
First of all, thank you for your thoughts! I appreciate the feedback.
The complaints I've been hearing is that the rules are "broken" and make the Jedi too powerful. My assertion is that the rules are fine, the GMs need to quit giving out Jedi goodies like candy.
| atgxtg wrote: |
1) Force Points
The JEdi probably has more FPs that the guy with the blaster. While not all Force Senstive character are Jedi, Jedi generally earn FPs faster than non-Jedi.
If the Jedi PC spends a FP, he gets to to go into "Power Up" mode and not only doubles his combat dice, but also doubles his Control for damage purposes. |
The speed with which a PC gains FPs is entirely governed by individual GMs and not the rules. They need to stop giving them out like candy. (In 2 years of weekly game sessions back in the day, my non-Jedi earned and spent a whopping 3 Force Points. The Jedi in our party earned 1-2 more than that.
| atgxtg wrote: |
2) Allies not Enemies
In your examples you are comparing one PC to another. That's not something that happens often. The problems with Jedi generally are not that they are unfiar in comparison to other PCs, but that they are overpowered in comparison to what we see on screen. Generally both PCs are on the same side and fighting against the bad guys (Empire, CIS, etc). Now when you put the pair together, what happens is that after a certain point, anything that has a chance of hitting the Jedi can usually wipe out the other PCs. |
Well, that was another complaint. "Jedi make my non-Jedi PC worthless. Why would I want to play anything but a Jedi?" As the spreadsheet shows (from a pure combat standpoint) they can be equivalent.
| atgxtg wrote: |
3) Jedi Get Hit & Die on Screen
I the game, with the effects of lightsaber combat, the chances of a PC Jedi getting hit by any minor character are virtually nil. "By the Book" JEdi would have kicked butt on Geonsis. Nor would Luke have gotten shot in the hand while rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt. In the game, the math against it worse than most lotteries.
In the films characters like Gen. Grievous and the Magnaguard Droids can actually beat Jedi. THat's not too likely in the RPG. Without Lightsaber Combat, they are not going to pose much of a threat to Jedi in the RPG. |
You are correct. PC Jedi don't (and shouldn't) get hit by minor characters. The Jedi on Geonosis were severely outnumbered. My example was that of a Jedi against a single opponent. On Geonosis the Jedi were outnumbered a good 10-20 to 1, the GM played the battle droids correctly in that encounter by combining fire and overwhelming the Jedi. You mentioned Luke on Jabba's sail barge... again, Luke was fighting at least 5-10 people. When you consider the +3 modifier for each combatant to get the +2D from Combat Sense, the Jedi can get overwhelmed. As far as Grievous goes, I'd have to look up Gry's conversion stats. I would think his basic Dex Lightsaber skill would be quite high.
| atgxtg wrote: |
4) Lightsabers Don't Always Cut People in Half
In the films we see several lightsaber duels. They are dramatic and tension building. People get hit, and usually get injured. First off, this would cause lightsaber combat to drop, leaving the character vulnerable to a coup de gras. If that were true, Luke would have won against Vader on Cloud City. Secondly the damage that lightsabers do in the game, make minor injuries impossible. While there are a few options and powers that can reduce kill results to maimings they do not fit in with the story we see on screen. Actually using some of those survival powers while Lightsaber Combat is up and after a few attacks and defensies is even more unlikely. |
You forget the fact that LS Combat gives the option for PCs to REDUCE the damage based on their Control Skill. When I am GM, every minor character cut in half by a PC = 1 DSP. Even if they're evil and even if it's in self-defense. Jedi are supposed to preserve life. The Jedi Code is a powerful tool for GMs.
On the Dark Side of the equation, remember Vader's intent... he didn't want to KILL Luke... he wanted to CONVERT him. Story factors should play a huge role in lightsaber duels... particularly ones as dramatic as that. In Episode III, Dooku grazes Obi-Wan but essentially takes him out of the fight. (Obi-Wan drops LS Combat and uses Reduce Injury, but fails his remain conscious roll. Meanwhile, Anakin is still attacking Dooku, so Dooku can't coup de grace.)
| atgxtg wrote: |
5 Era of Play
You constantly state that the Jedi should have problems finding (and/or keeping) a teacher. That might be true during the Rebellion era, but isn't necessarily the case for other eras. With the Jedi Temple o0r Academy around finding (and keeping) a teacher is easy. Even during the Rebellion era, teachers do exist, and once a PC Jedi finds one, he will probably be able to get training from that point on in the campaign. |
Remember, I said a teacher WILLING to teach the student. A PC Jedi who begs and begs his teacher to train him in LS Combat should probably not be taught that ability until the PC learns some patience. Remember Yoda: "No more will I teach you today." I agree, in the Old Republic and Jedi Academy eras, teachers are more readily available. But just because you have a teacher shouldn't make the half CP cost automatic. (Again, GMs, quit giving out goodies and then complaining that Jedi are overpowered. Guess what? you, the GM, made em overpowered... not the system.) "Quicker, easier, more seductive... the Dark Side that is."
| atgxtg wrote: |
6. Jedi vs. Swordsman
I don't see your point with this. Since there is little defense against a lightsaber, and the Jedi can parry (and destroy) the swordman's weapon, the rest is kind of moot. |
This was always my assumption for years. Melee Parry is a reaction roll. It can represent moving out of the way of a melee attack, not just parrying it with your own weapon. (Dodge is only good for moving out of the way of ranged attacks.)
| atgxtg wrote: |
7. Slow Development isn't no Development
Your argument rests heavily on Jedi being kept in check by slower development. What it ignores is that sooner or later, unless they get killed, they will develop. They powers that they get do more that add versatility, they also can counter many of the advantage that they guy with the high blaster skill once had. |
"A Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest committment." The journey of a Jedi from Padawan to Knight is LONG journey. GMs need to keep it that way. Even in the prequels, younglings were taught at age around age 5... but Obi-Wan was in his late teens during Episode I. "I'm glad you think I'm ready for the trials," he said to Qui-Gon. That's ~13 *YEARS* of time before Obi-Wan was even considered for Knighthood.
Just as the Jedi is improving, so is the guy with the blaster skill. He's also learning ways to deal with Jedi... attacking from a superior position and behind cover. Use explosives in conjunction with blasters. Keep the Jedi at a distance via a jet pack. Creating distractions.
| atgxtg wrote: |
8. Everyone has other things to do
You also make a point that Jedi would need to study other things besides Lightsaber and Force skills. You seem to imply that this puts them at disadvantage compared to other PCs. That isn't entirely true. First off other PCs need to learn things besides dodge and blaster. Secondly, because Force skills are so powerful and versatile, raising them is often more effective than raising several skills. For example, a character with magnify senses and instinctive astrogation will probably get more out of raising Sense 1 pip than by raising the Astrogation and Search skills. So by raising multiple abilities by raising one Force skill, the Jedi does more tan maintain parity. [/b] |
The Jedi in my example didn't have the Alter Skill. If he had spent CPs in it (another 60-90 to get to 5D), then the "equivalent" melee or blaster character would have 60-90 CPs to spend in other skills and stayed just as effective in combat against the Jedi. I'll grant you the versatiliity argument... I mentioned it before. The focus here was mostly on combat ability.
Here's my opinion (as if I haven't given it enough already)
The rules are fine. They are balanced and fair, as written. The only thing that tips Jedi in favor of non-Jedi are GMs. GMs seem to be unaware how much power they are giving by handing out lightsabers, force powers and teachers left and right. Likewise, they are not "saying no" to the Jedi PC by ensuring the Jedi follows the Jedi Code. (e.g. tempting young Jedi with Dark Side points and requiring atonement, using Jedi Teachers to actually teach moral lessons and not just halve the cost of Jedi Skill dice.)
From the movies... anyone notice the sneer and look of anger on Obi-Wan's face after he witnessed Darth Maul run Qui-Gon through? Yeah, big time Dark Side Point.
One of the short stories in SWAJ #11 summed it up nicely:
"Who is a Jedi's most dangerous foe?" Answer: Themself.
(or as Walt Kelly's Pogo once quipped: "I met the enemy and it is us.")
_________________
Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?"
Last edited by Rerun941 on Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Great point. I have seen some jedi players who did nothing but raise force powers and use enhance attrib, mag senses etc to equal the others. |
[/quote]
The game mechanics encourage it. It a character doesn't have a teacher and thus spends 2x the CP cost, then he is probably going to look for the easiest way to get the job done. Once someone has a few dice in Control or Sense, it is usually easier just to learn a power. It's not so much a matter of power gaming, but of trying to compensate for the weaknesses and limitations that go with a fledgling Jedi PC. Its simply cheaper/easier for most Jedi to learn Accelerate Healing and Accelerate Another's Healing than it is to raise First Aid to a comparable level of effectiveness.
The Rebellion setting/fight for survival, had most Jedi I've seen, make raising Force Powers to a reliable level thier first priority, spending the lions share of their CPs on the Force. So it was natural to do something with the Force when possible. |
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Jedi generally earn FPs faster than non-Jedi. |
This has not been my experience at all. Mind you, I've always played with groups that are far more conservative in their Force Point use than most people I've encountered on this forum. They've never been particularly easy to get back, let alone get 2. I also haven't found that the Jedi characters are in any more heroic situations than the non-Jedi... they're generally in the same situations together, meaning that when there's an opportunity for the Jedi to gain FPs, there's an opportunity for the non-Jedi as well.
Yes, Force Sensitive characters have the potential to use two FP rather than 1, but it's never come up in my years of gaming that they do.
| Rerun941 wrote: | | In 2 years of weekly game sessions back in the day, my non-Jedi earned and spent a whopping 3 Force Points. The Jedi in our party earned 1-2 more than that. |
A fine example of what I'm talking about... I think in the past 15+ years of playing we've used just about double that number of Force Points, but with no difference between the Jedi and non-Jedi. I think all in all I've seen... under a dozen Force Points used in my table top games.
| atgxtg wrote: | 3) Jedi Get Hit & Die on Screen
I the game, with the effects of lightsaber combat, the chances of a PC Jedi getting hit by any minor character are virtually nil. "By the Book" JEdi would have kicked butt on Geonsis. Nor would Luke have gotten shot in the hand while rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt. In the game, the math against it worse than most lotteries.
In the films characters like Gen. Grievous and the Magnaguard Droids can actually beat Jedi. THat's not too likely in the RPG. Without Lightsaber Combat, they are not going to pose much of a threat to Jedi in the RPG. |
Again, my experience differs. We've had more Jedi getting killed by random blaster shots than non-Jedi (and yes, the Jedi have been less common characters than non-Jedi, so the odds aren't stacked that way). Lightsaber Combat does give some pretty stiff bonuses, but it doesn't make them invincible.
This also applies to your #2 point on allies & enemies, again, by my experience. Generally by the point that the Jedi have their uber defenses working consistently, the non-Jedi PCs are generally well equipped (stats wise) to get out of the way of incoming attacks; likewise, they're in a good spot to dish out the pain too.
| atgxtg wrote: | 5 Era of Play
You constantly state that the Jedi should have problems finding (and/or keeping) a teacher. That might be true during the Rebellion era, but isn't necessarily the case for other eras. With the Jedi Temple o0r Academy around finding (and keeping) a teacher is easy. Even during the Rebellion era, teachers do exist, and once a PC Jedi finds one, he will probably be able to get training from that point on in the campaign.
6. Jedi vs. Swordsman
I don't see your point with this. Since there is little defense against a lightsaber, and the Jedi can parry (and destroy) the swordman's weapon, the rest is kind of moot.
7. Slow Development isn't no Development
Your argument rests heavily on Jedi being kept in check by slower development. What it ignores is that sooner or later, unless they get killed, they will develop. They powers that they get do more that add versatility, they also can counter many of the advantage that they guy with the high blaster skill once had.
8. Everyone has other things to do
You also make a point that Jedi would need to study other things besides Lightsaber and Force skills. You seem to imply that this puts them at disadvantage compared to other PCs. That isn't entirely true. First off other PCs need to learn things besides dodge and blaster. Secondly, because Force skills are so powerful and versatile, raising them is often more effective than raising several skills. For example, a character with magnify senses and instinctive astrogation will probably get more out of raising Sense 1 pip than by raising the Astrogation and Search skills. So by raising multiple abilities by raising one Force skill, the Jedi does more tan maintain parity. [/b] |
All valid points, but not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, Jedi do reach a point at which they become god-like... but that is appropriate, setting wise. This comes back to a point I've mentioned in several other threads over time... WEG d6 Star Wars is NOT a balanced system... but nor is Star Wars a balanced setting. Certain species are more powerful than others, certain characters are more powerful than others... Jedi are more powerful than most... this is reflected in the rules. The rules aren't definitely aren't perfect, but that concept of imbalance should remain if one wants to capture the setting.
Jedi gain more power (eventually) from the same CP expenditure than non-Jedi... this is true, but it's also appropriate.
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | The game mechanics encourage it. If a character doesn't have a teacher and thus spends 2x the CP cost, then he is probably going to look for the easiest way to get the job done. Once someone has a few dice in Control or Sense, it is usually easier just to learn a power. It's not so much a matter of power gaming, but of trying to compensate for the weaknesses and limitations that go with a fledgling Jedi PC. Its simply cheaper/easier for most Jedi to learn Accelerate Healing and Accelerate Another's Healing than it is to raise First Aid to a comparable level of effectiveness. |
From a storytelling/GM perspective, this reeks of the Dark Side. The Jedi PC is spending gobs of CPs on Force Skills without the moral compass of a teacher to guide him. The GM should be tempting that PC with the Dark Side constantly. And if all he's doing is using the Force then he's constantly sending out ripples announcing his presence. This is especially dangerous during the Rebellion Era.
From 2nd Ed R&E page 139:
"Those who frequently use the Force cause many, many tremors. When the Force is relied upon — used constantly to bend the universe to fit the will of the user — such tremors may be great enough that Jedi on distant planets may detect the user. Those who use the Force as a crude instrument of power are very likely to come to the attention of others.
New Jedi students are particularly likely to be detected. In their desire to master their powers, they often manipulate the Force ... yet their dabblings, if too frequent, draw the attentions of other nearby Force-users. The purge of the Jedi was facilitated by servants of the Emperor who detected, tracked and exterminated novice Jedi."
and by the way, if he doesn't have a teacher, how is he learning Accelerate Healing and Accelrate Another's Healing?
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Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | The game mechanics encourage it. If a character doesn't have a teacher and thus spends 2x the CP cost, then he is probably going to look for the easiest way to get the job done. Once someone has a few dice in Control or Sense, it is usually easier just to learn a power. It's not so much a matter of power gaming, but of trying to compensate for the weaknesses and limitations that go with a fledgling Jedi PC. Its simply cheaper/easier for most Jedi to learn Accelerate Healing and Accelerate Another's Healing than it is to raise First Aid to a comparable level of effectiveness. |
From a storytelling/GM perspective, this reeks of the Dark Side. The Jedi PC is spending gobs of CPs on Force Skills without the moral compass of a teacher to guide him. The GM should be tempting that PC with the Dark Side constantly. And if all he's doing is using the Force then he's constantly sending out ripples announcing his presence. This is especially dangerous during the Rebellion Era. |
Maybe to you. Since a Jedi is supposed to help andprotect others (in fact not doing so can result in DSPs) then the Jedi learing the abiolities that are needed to do so isn't evil.
| Quote: |
From 2nd Ed R&E page 139:
"Those who frequently use the Force cause many, many tremors. When the Force is relied upon — used constantly to bend the universe to fit the will of the user — such tremors may be great enough that Jedi on distant planets may detect the user. Those who use the Force as a crude instrument of power are very likely to come to the attention of others.
New Jedi students are particularly likely to be detected. In their desire to master their powers, they often manipulate the Force ... yet their dabblings, if too frequent, draw the attentions of other nearby Force-users. The purge of the Jedi was facilitated by servants of the Emperor who detected, tracked and exterminated novice Jedi." |
Also noted in the R&E is that the rule change was designed to give the GMs more control over force using PCs. The "Eye of Sauron" rule didn't exisit and wasn't really needed before anyway. The normal Sense and Proximity rules handled that just nicely.
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and by the way, if he doesn't have a teacher, how is he learning Accelerate Healing and Accelrate Another's Healing? |
Well, when I did it as a player, I did it the easy way, I started my character in 1st edition when you didn't have to learn powers. FOr my players, most of whom weren't so lucky, the healing powers were often taken with the "slots" they got by rasing thier 1D Force skills to 2 or 3D with intial skill dice before play. |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Rerun941 wrote: | | From a storytelling/GM perspective, this reeks of the Dark Side. The Jedi PC is spending gobs of CPs on Force Skills without the moral compass of a teacher to guide him. The GM should be tempting that PC with the Dark Side constantly. And if all he's doing is using the Force then he's constantly sending out ripples announcing his presence. This is especially dangerous during the Rebellion Era. |
Maybe to you. Since a Jedi is supposed to help andprotect others (in fact not doing so can result in DSPs) then the Jedi learing the abiolities that are needed to do so isn't evil. | Quote: |
From 2nd Ed R&E page 139:
"Those who frequently use the Force cause many, many tremors. When the Force is relied upon — used constantly to bend the universe to fit the will of the user — such tremors may be great enough that Jedi on distant planets may detect the user. Those who use the Force as a crude instrument of power are very likely to come to the attention of others.
New Jedi students are particularly likely to be detected. In their desire to master their powers, they often manipulate the Force ... yet their dabblings, if too frequent, draw the attentions of other nearby Force-users. The purge of the Jedi was facilitated by servants of the Emperor who detected, tracked and exterminated novice Jedi." |
Also noted in the R&E is that the rule change was designed to give the GMs more control over force using PCs. The "Eye of Sauron" rule didn't exisit and wasn't really needed before anyway. The normal Sense and Proximity rules handled that just nicely.
| Quote: |
and by the way, if he doesn't have a teacher, how is he learning Accelerate Healing and Accelrate Another's Healing? |
Well, when I did it as a player, I did it the easy way, I started my character in 1st edition when you didn't have to learn powers. FOr my players, most of whom weren't so lucky, the healing powers were often taken with the "slots" they got by rasing thier 1D Force skills to 2 or 3D with intial skill dice before play. |
Well, I'd still rule a DSP... the Jedi can "pull the punch" by using less Control Dice or opt to maim vs kill. He should choose to let an adversary live.
As far as the 1st Ed stuff... I never played it. So, I can't comment.
_________________
Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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AWAD
Cadet
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | Ok, before I start.. let me say that I would never do this and have never seen anyone do it. Its just an example of a worse case scenario. It does however, highlight, the inevitable spread in the gulf between the Force Sensitive and non-Force Sensitive as the number of character points everybody has access to goes up.
4D (9), 5D (12), 6D (15), 7D [18], 8D (21), 9D (24)
At 99 character points spent the Lightsaber character has 9D skill
28 points into control---> 1D (10), 2D (3), 3D (6), 4D (9)
73 points into sense 1D (10), 2D (3), 3D (6), 4D (9), 5D (12), 6D (15), 7D [18]
At 101 character points spent the Jedi has Control 4D and Sense 7D.
The first character has 9D in his skill to hit and parry.
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Nice job on the break down. Good to see it like this.
The issue with me is more the exponential curve and the damage. At low level the Jedi is hosed. I mean the first 20 CP is lost just to turn the power on and you can not make the roll. And it remains this way for some time. But then you get to 5D or better sense and it starts to come unglued. Sort of like the old D&D mage, Lvl 5 and you get Fireball and enough hits to survive 2 sword hits.
Up to this point the Jedi needs friends otherwise he is toast. Now he can slice and dice plus do other cool things. The friends can still help but not as needed. If you put the others by themselves or in a bind then they are cooked. The Jedi has at least 10 options.
In the old days it seemed a big adventure on netted you 4-8 CP so getting the first 20 took some time. And if you did not have a teacher it really sucked to be a Jedi. But it seems most people hand it out faster or the Jedi has an instructor, or both. Issue is so many people saw the Luke stats or the movies and wanted to do that.
Other item is damage. If the Lightsaber did less damage, like base 2D, and then added 1D for every 2D in Control then it is not a death stick. I do not mind then hitting everything in site; they just also kill or mutilate everything they hit.
Lightsaber being attack and parry is a nuisance to me. Do not get wrapped around the axel on that one.
AWAD- Whose Jedi in the party with 4D+2 Sense and 5D control is already becoming Uber |
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AWAD
Cadet
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Great point. I have seen some jedi players who did nothing but raise force powers and use enhance attrib, mag senses etc to equal the others. |
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The game mechanics encourage it. It a character doesn't have a teacher and thus spends 2x the CP cost, then he is probably going to look for the easiest way to get the job done. Once someone has a few dice in Control or Sense, it is usually easier just to learn a power. It's not so much a matter of power gaming, but of trying to compensate for the weaknesses and limitations that go with a fledgling Jedi PC. Its simply cheaper/easier for most Jedi to learn Accelerate Healing and Accelerate Another's Healing than it is to raise First Aid to a comparable level of effectiveness.
The Rebellion setting/fight for survival, had most Jedi I've seen, make raising Force Powers to a reliable level thier first priority, spending the lions share of their CPs on the Force. So it was natural to do something with the Force when possible.[/quote]
Mechanics do encourage it and is fine up to a point. Sometimes talking to the Jedi player out of character helps. Let them know the game is either becoming difficult for you to manage or the other players are getting a little miffed. Some people do not like prima donnas.
When all else fails, doink them. Put them in a place Force Powers do not work. The pucker factor gets high and maybe they learn to diversify.
Other fun stuff is send the Force Mind Eating Sith Minion of Doom after then. It follows the trail of people using Force until it goes cold. So they use it sparingly it is 3 systems away, never for 3-4 sessions it goes off after some other putz. All the time, it is time to make a new character.
A great disturbance in the force has unbalanced it and the availability or its power level is erratic.
Make them earn Dark side points real easy and put them in as many compromising situations as possible.
AWAD- This game does not lend itself to balance, but the GM does have to make it reasonable. |
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ggmoridin
Ensign
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:13 am Post subject: |
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ill agree that jedi characters can far out strip a non-jedi character, but i personally believe it all comes down to how the character is played.
i was playing a mandalore (yes with the dodgy stats as we didnt have any other info at the time) and several of my allies were jedi. it was a high cp game i think at last telly the main jedi had like 300 odd points (and pretty sure he was giving himself points ontop of what gm was giving him).
the group would sometimes play while i wasnt there and end up calling me "come over we need you for this combat or part of campaign".
now my character couldnt spend/gain FP's, couldn't get force powers AND i was like 100 CP's lower than everyone else, yet they were still relying on my character to get past the section they were in.
i think the biggest difference in the way we played our characters was that the jedi thought "hey we're jedi we are uber and invincible" were i was having my character think "what the hell is wrong with these guys... do they want to die???, yes i was breed to fight, ive been trained to fight, i LIVE to fight, that doesnt mean im going to run in there guns blazing and get myself killed!!"
sorry for the ramble  but as i said at the top i think it all comes down to play style! |
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 164
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:16 am Post subject: |
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Obviousy there have been a lot of different experiences. Some have played in games where the Force was kept on a tight leash and others in games where it was not. I too have played in games of both varieties.
The problem with the rules is highlighted by the fact that such a difference should be so obvious. The fact that giving players free access to the Force system causes such disruption is a problem. While it might be reasonable in some Eras and settings to keep players from accessing Lightsaber Combat and accelerate healing (and making them pay double for everything), in others, such restrictions actually begin to ruin people's fun just as much as the Force can.
rerun941 wrote:
| Quote: | | Remember, I said a teacher WILLING to teach the student. A PC Jedi who begs and begs his teacher to train him in LS Combat should probably not be taught that ability until the PC learns some patience. Remember Yoda: "No more will I teach you today." I agree, in the Old Republic and Jedi Academy eras, teachers are more readily available. But just because you have a teacher shouldn't make the half CP cost automatic. (Again, GMs, quit giving out goodies and then complaining that Jedi are overpowered. Guess what? you, the GM, made em overpowered... not the system.) "Quicker, easier, more seductive... the Dark Side that is." |
This kind of logic might sound reasonable (and it is in the rebellion era and New Jedi Order Era) but a starting Jedi in the Rise of the Empire Era already had Lightsaber Combat. Its basic training: Yoda taught it to him when he was eight.
The Force system forces you to hand out the Force in chunks that are too big. What you need is a system that is more gradual: where giving out Lightsaber Combat gives a small but significant bonus. The players gets to think: 'cool, I'm using the Force to boost my ability with a Lightsaber just like luke' and no one is going to punish him for it.
You have people making suggestions here which basically come down to: I gave you this cool thing, you paid for it, and now I'm going to punish you for daring to use it. The Jedi use their powers. We've all seen the films, read the comics and we want to do the things and act the way that Jedi do in those stories. This means access to the Force, proper access, but without that access derailing others.
You can keep the current Force system in check. What I'm saying is: you shouldn't have to. The dark side should be enforced vigorously and it is the major downside of the Force but the upside of the Force should also be encouraged: and the current system does not do that (not if don't want to undermine the other characters and make equivalent character NPC villains a joke).
ggmoridin wrote:
| Quote: | | think the biggest difference in the way we played our characters was that the jedi thought "hey we're jedi we are uber and invincible" were i was having my character think "what the hell is wrong with these guys... do they want to die???, yes i was breed to fight, ive been trained to fight, i LIVE to fight, that doesnt mean im going to run in there guns blazing and get myself killed!!" |
Jedi should not think like this but I can see why players might in a game where Lightsaber combat gives me +3D to my parry (sense 5D for example). +3D is an awesome bonus anywhere else in the game. In the Force system its realy not that difficult to attain.
AWAD wrote:
| Quote: | When all else fails, doink them. Put them in a place Force Powers do not work. The pucker factor gets high and maybe they learn to diversify.
Other fun stuff is send the Force Mind Eating Sith Minion of Doom after then. It follows the trail of people using Force until it goes cold. So they use it sparingly it is 3 systems away, never for 3-4 sessions it goes off after some other putz. All the time, it is time to make a new character.
A great disturbance in the force has unbalanced it and the availability or its power level is erratic.
Make them earn Dark side points real easy and put them in as many compromising situations as possible. |
I know that you didn't mean it this way but this is the perfect example of the kind of logic that the Force system drives some game masters to. I wanted them to have the things that Jedi obviously should and now I feel the need to punish them for it. A system should not produce this kind of thinking in anyone and - before you say it - if you are one of the people that it doesn't produce that kind of thinking in, that does not undermine my assertion.
This happens... a lot. It does not happen in a Saga game of star wars and it does not happen in games where people have re-imagined the Force system as something more reasonable. One of the major reasons we re-wrote the Force rules was because we wanted a system where I could actually let players use the Force - the way it is used in the Films - by all the Jedi. I did not want to only play the one type of game: the game where the Jedi does not have any power and his master won't teach him anything. I'd played those for years. Now I wanted to jump out a window and know I could catch myself with the Force and not be so powerful noone else could play a non-Force sensitive in the group (say a beautiful princess I might fall in love with) and feel completely useless.
AWAD wrote:
| Quote: | | Other item is damage. If the Lightsaber did less damage, like base 2D, and then added 1D for every 2D in Control then it is not a death stick. I do not mind then hitting everything in site; they just also kill or mutilate everything they hit. |
Why does lightsaber combat need to give a bonus to damage at all. 5D is very decent already. Why not a bonus to hit? Why not a significant but reasonable bonus to attack? Bonus damage always struck me as an attack through the Force anyway: even if I'm using control to do it. Just a suggestion.  |
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