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masque
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Joined: 16 Mar 2006
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Location: Houston, TX
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 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Some points:
Beginning of the scene: http://www.telcom.es/~jcastjr/starwars/greedo.jpg
He holds the blaster on Han throughout the entire conversation.
As for the Force being explained scientifically, the cause might not be known (since I reject midichlorians), but the effects are directly observable. It is "real" in the Star Wars universe, without question. I don't equate it with notions of the soul. We may have to agree to disagree on that point. If your system is not, in your view, equivalent to an alignment system, what is your view of how an alignment system works?
I never said mundanes were immune, I described exactly how they are affected by and how they affect the Force. If, as you say, the dark side seduces mundanes, what does that entail? They can't use the Force, so what's the point? Basically it means they're an evil guy, who probably has people gunning for them, which is no different from what I described previously. The examples you give about warlords and mass murderers getting away with murder is an argument in favor of my way of looking at things. No cosmic force ensured that they would get punished, it's the job of humans to do the punishing. As I described. We are talking about a game after all. While people get away with it in real life, as the GM, we can put those obstacles in the path of the mundane evil doers without resorting to the use of DSPs, and frankly, I find the mundane solutions have more impact anyway. Regarding the "rocks fall" scenario, that was an oversimplification, but I don't view my job as GM as a neutral position. My job is to ensure everyone has a good time. According to the rules, for a mundane to get a DSP, he would have to do something evil while spending a force point. The GM is required to warn the player about this, and the player would have to go ahead with the action anyway. At that point, the player is an idiot if he decides to continue, and is likely ruining the game for the other players with his munchkin attitude. This is all theoretical, by the way, I don't have players that dumb.
In any case, if presented with the pirate situation you use in your example, I don't need to use DSPs to reign the character in line. He would instead get a reputation for being a monster, and would run into patrols more often, other pirates would refuse to work with him, victims who lived or dead victims families would seek revenge, etc., and eventually, he'd either change his ways as to make his job easier again, or he would enter one too many combat situations and end up dying. I don't need to fudge anything, it would just be the law of averages. With such a wide variety of options available on a purely mundane level, inflicting DSPs seems a waste of effort, and in fact, encourages munchkinhood, as DSPs can be used for bonuses. Real punishment like inflicting realistic mundane consequences for actions, possibly leading to character death is a lot more effective.
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Pel
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Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 983
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I should probably clarify a bit more. I'm with Jedi Skyler in that I don't award DSPs to mundanes unless they accomplish some truly heinous act of despotic evil. We're not talking the Diet Coke (tm) of evil here. This is Tarkin-esque "As Evil As They Wanna Be" material.
That brings up a question: I think we can probably all agree that Tarkin deserved and received a DSP for destroying Alderaan. Can anyone give another example of a mundane being committing an act on that scale? Even in the EU, I'm drawing a blank. More examples may help codify what is and is not DSP worthy.
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Chandra Mindarass
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Joined: 01 Jun 2005
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Location: Hilden, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Damn, of course! I totally forgot how the conversation between Solo and Greedo started. 
| Quote: | | I reject midichlorians |
Midi..what?! 
+1 on that. They might be an indicator, but not the creatures, that run the force or something!
| Quote: | | If, as you say, the dark side seduces mundanes, what does that entail? They can't use the Force, so what's the point? |
The dark side is often portrayed as having a will of its own. The dark side feeds on dark emotions. When people suffer, it is good for the dark side, since evil will grow much better in a galaxy full of pain and suffering. Victims want revenge, this will cause more pain. What goes around comes around. Evil persons, like Tarkin, the pirate from my example or a gamorrean slaver are spreading pain and suffering, feeding the dark side with their deed. So it pays for the dark side to offer gifts.
@Star Wars 2nd ed R&E:
| Quote: | Characters, Force-sensitive or not, may call upon the dark side, especially when angry, aggressive, desperate or otherwise out of balance. [...]
When a character successfully calls upon the dark side, he gets a force point, that he must spend immediately - this is in addition to any other Force Points, which have been spent that round. |
| Quote: | | what is your view of how an alignment system works? |
An alignment system makes sure, that a Paladin will always act in law-preserving, good-natured way, while the necromancer will always be a source of chaos and evil. It's fun for AD&D, but useless for Star Wars or Shadowrun, where it just wouldn't fit. It gives you nine easy-to-use personality archetypes. Acting out of character means severe punishment. (Level-based penalties mostly) To compare that with one little DSP, you got when you were a little out of yourself is not very precise. A DSP-warning isn't nearly as bad as an alignment warning.
| Quote: | | My job is to ensure everyone has a good time. |
This forces me to remain neutral. My players expect it. I wouldn't want it any other way.
| Quote: | | According to the rules, for a mundane to get a DSP, he would have to do something evil while spending a force point. The GM is required to warn the player about this, and the player would have to go ahead with the action anyway. At that point, the player is an idiot if he decides to continue, and is likely ruining the game for the other players with his munchkin attitude. This is all theoretical, by the way, I don't have players that dumb. |
Yep, some pretty theoretical situation came up here, although it doesn't necessarily ruin the fun for everyone, if one character gets a DSP for acting in character. We gather to tell the story, not to avoid DSPs.
| Quote: | | He would instead get a reputation for being a monster, and would run into patrols more often, other pirates would refuse to work with him, victims who lived or dead victims families would seek revenge, etc., and eventually, he'd either change his ways as to make his job easier again, or he would enter one too many combat situations and end up dying. |
Or the other "monsters" would just welcome him in their rows or make him their new leader. There was no way of telling the wrecks, were not from a reactor mishap, so this was not an option. I still need to explain, how mundane justice found its way to the character. Besides, these events forged the character into the good natured person he is now. He saw where this road was taking him and did not want to follow anymore. Regrets never go away, but for DSPs you can always atone. That's why I give them out more easily.
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Chandra Mindarass
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Can anyone give another example of a mundane being committing an act on that scale? |
I think a mundane murdering billions of people is unequalled in Star Wars. There were some Sith lords but they don't count. I guess we can find some examples during the Clone Wars.
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masque
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The dark side is often portrayed as having a will of its own. The dark side feeds on dark emotions. When people suffer, it is good for the dark side, since evil will grow much better in a galaxy full of pain and suffering. Victims want revenge, this will cause more pain. What goes around comes around. Evil persons, like Tarkin, the pirate from my example or a gamorrean slaver are spreading pain and suffering, feeding the dark side with their deed. So it pays for the dark side to offer gifts. |
I don't see the "dark side" as actually possessing a will of its own. To me that's just a metaphor for how easy it is for people to give in to their own selfish desires. Pursuing one's own selfish desires above all other considerations is what defines someone following the "dark side" to me. I do not view evil as a tangible thing that wants to spread, evil is selfish desire run amuck combined with a lack of consideration for the needs of others. Causing pain and suffering does indeed cast one further along the "dark" path, but that's because doing such things desensitizes them further from being aware of the needs of others, and makes it even easier to follow their own selfish desires. It's a subtle, philosophical distinction, but it's key to my understanding of the nature of the Force.
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what is your view of how an alignment system works?
An alignment system makes sure, that a Paladin will always act in law-preserving, good-natured way, while the necromancer will always be a source of chaos and evil. It's fun for AD&D, but useless for Star Wars or Shadowrun, where it just wouldn't fit. It gives you nine easy-to-use personality archetypes. Acting out of character means severe punishment. (Level-based penalties mostly) To compare that with one little DSP, you got when you were a little out of yourself is not very precise. A DSP-warning isn't nearly as bad as an alignment warning. |
Eh. I'll grant that DSPs aren't as severe as alignment penalties in D&D, but it still seems to be a low grade equivalent. I'm of the view that Jedi and other Force using characters can be likened to D&D paladins, in terms of ethics, at any rate, and the mechanic is therefore useful for them. I still find it an unnecessary thing for mundanes, in most cases. To me DSPs are a severe penalty to inflict upon a Force using character, a way to make them viscerally aware of the ethical tightrope involved with wielding the power that they do. Assigning it to mundanes in the way you do lessens the importance of DSPs to those very Force-users that the mechanic is designed to affect. If I were playing in a game you were running, I would almost definitely choose to be Force sensitive, simply because there's no downside. If a mundane has to be as careful about getting DSPs as a Jedi character does, there's absolutely no advantage to playing a mundane at all. If both types have to walk the moral tightrope, one may as well enjoy the power that comes with it. You can raise the amount that Force sensitives get for similar acts, but then you have a problem with the die checks being out of proportion, so you have to rewrite that rule, and it's a whole lot of unnecessary work when the original rule is simple and avoids this very issue. See my point?
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Yep, some pretty theoretical situation came up here, although it doesn't necessarily ruin the fun for everyone, if one character gets a DSP for acting in character. We gather to tell the story, not to avoid DSPs. |
My standard for getting them being different than yours, a player in my games wouldn't earn them for "acting in character." They'd have to be acting incredibly brutal or cruel, and I don't encourage my players to play characters where that type of behavior would be in-character.
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He would instead get a reputation for being a monster, and would run into patrols more often, other pirates would refuse to work with him, victims who lived or dead victims families would seek revenge, etc., and eventually, he'd either change his ways as to make his job easier again, or he would enter one too many combat situations and end up dying.
Or the other "monsters" would just welcome him in their rows or make him their new leader. There was no way of telling the wrecks, were not from a reactor mishap, so this was not an option. I still need to explain, how mundane justice found its way to the character. Besides, these events forged the character into the good natured person he is now. He saw where this road was taking him and did not want to follow anymore. Regrets never go away, but for DSPs you can always atone. That's why I give them out more easily. |
Other monsters might do just that, if the GM lets that opportunity present itself. As for the odd isolated incident, yeah, the character might be able to get away with it. But if it's that isolated of an incident, it's not a pattern of "evil" behavior, and therefore doesn't need punishing, in my view. If they have regrets, GOOD. That means that they are basically good, if they feel bad about bad things they've done. It's when you do bad things without regret that you start entering the realm where DSPs might be warranted.
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Chandra Mindarass
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Joined: 01 Jun 2005
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Location: Hilden, Germany
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't see the "dark side" as actually possessing a will of its own. |
Well, it's been said a couple of times by followers of that tradition. If it's true or not doesn't matter, for the game it's enough, that it appears to be like that....and like you said, we don't have to disagree on every point I also concur to the statement, that it just makes people selfish to the extreme.
| Quote: | | Pursuing one's own selfish desires above all other considerations is what defines someone following the "dark side" to me. |
I believe Dooku had true intentions. He accepted the invitation to become a Sith because he wanted to get rid of a system, that he perceived as decadent and bad for the galaxy. He saw all that he fought for die, because incompentent politicians were shredding it to pieces while a Jedi order blinded by pride, sits by and watches. It seemed to be the only way to save the galactic government. Even on Geonosis, I didn't get the impression, that he was trying to lure Obiwan over to the dark-side. I don't even think it was part of the Sideous' plan, that his influence on the Senate was revealed that early. What happened to Tyranus over the course of his Sith career is up to debate, but I believe, that this is a case of the best intentions breading the worst tragedies.
| Quote: | | I'm of the view that Jedi and other Force using characters can be likened to D&D paladins, in terms of ethics, at any rate, and the mechanic is therefore useful for them. |
The Jedi have a moral code like the Paladins. A Paladin who seizes being "Lawful Good" loses his status forever. A Jedi can fall and get up again. A "force user" can be anything from a Nightsister to a Tion Lal to an Ewok shaman to a follower of the Tyia (spl???), a Paladin is a unique class, that can even be worked into the role of a villain, because they tend to be intolerant bigots. The (post Ruusan) Jedi will kick you out for things that have nothing to do with DSPs, like getting married, smuggling spice or having a political office. (Yes, there were exceptions, Ki-Adi Mundi had kids and several wifes.) These are moral issues that don't matter to this debate.
| Quote: | | If both types have to walk the moral tightrope, one may as well enjoy the power that comes with it. |
There are some things that are considered evil by all those force using traditions. Commiting this kind of evil will give anyone a DSP. Shooting an unarmed prisoner in the face, who is pleading for his live will give you a DSP, force user or not. Standing by while innocents get killed will give the force user a DSP, while the smuggler might just go about his business. And again: This has nothing to do with morals. The fact that soldiers kill soldiers may be sad and morally questionable, but I wouldn't consider it evil. Both knew this could happen when they enlisted.Yes, this is an argument for NOT giving the players a DSP after sending the imperials on a trip into the sun. If a sniper kills a revolutionary politician with a precise blaster bolt, I wouldn't give the sniper a DSP, if he's not FS. Taking down the entire stage with explosives, killing his kids and wife, all of his bodyguards and a dozen bystanders in the audience, give him a DSP I would. The important word here are "unnecessary" suffering and "innocent bystander". The ends don't justify the means. Otherwise you could argue that Tarkin was just defending the imperial order against the forces of chaos and seperatism when he annihilated the rebel world Alderaan.
Yes, but do you see mine? Force users do get them more easily, NFSs must act in ways of unproportional violence or wickedness to obtain them. I don't know if our positions are really that far apart from each other. I have three happy NFS players (swoop racer, professional killer, smuggler), one FS player (priest from a primitive cult) and one actual non-Jedi force-user (the former pirate). The pro-killer doesn't have one DSP, because so far his vicitims have been heads from rival crime organizations or other non-innocents. I give DSPs for deliberately killing innocents.
D!mn, time's up. I will be back....
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masque
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Chandra Mindarass wrote: |
Yes, but do you see mine? Force users do get them more easily, NFSs must act in ways of unproportional violence or wickedness to obtain them. I don't know if our positions are really that far apart from each other. I have three happy NFS players (swoop racer, professional killer, smuggler), one FS player (priest from a primitive cult) and one actual non-Jedi force-user (the former pirate). The pro-killer doesn't have one DSP, because so far his vicitims have been heads from rival crime organizations or other non-innocents. I give DSPs for deliberately killing innocents.
D!mn, time's up. I will be back.... |
Earlier it was sounding like you were giving DSPs to mundanes as strictly as you would to a Force user, and that is what I objected to. We may still disagree on what would cause a mundane to get one (my criteria is more lenient, I would say), and I still hold to the rule as described in the book where unless it's incredibly awful, a mundane has to be burning a Force point. Our standards of what constitutes something incredibly awful seem to differ, but that's a GM discretion issue.
As applied to mundanes, I just think the DSP mechanic is a bad fit, because it's so Force-user specific that it isn't much of a penalty, and changing the penalties for mundanes just adds clunk to the game. If psychological trauma and atonement is a theme one wants to explore in game, I personally would import the Madness rules from Unknown Armies, although they would definitely take away from the light space opera feel of Star Wars. It does have the advantage of making players who act like sociopaths feel the consequences.
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Chandra Mindarass
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'm basically handling DSPs for mundanes with madness and similar stuff. Being a force user also brings a lot of in-game responsibilities for the characters, the force is pushing and pulling them in their dreams and visions.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Yay, located the somewhat old but still good "do you give a dsp in this situation or not" thread for our newer folk to go over..
For you when DSPs are to be awarded, its it only the act that matters or the intent?
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Neither circumstance, assuming the party was a team of Rebels.
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Lane Arroway
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| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:16 am Post subject: |
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I was looking through the rules section of the 2ndR&E rule book and found myself reading the Dark Side Point section. I was surprised to see that even non-forcesensitive characters can fall to the dark side. I guess if a mundane is willing to commit an act that will get them a dsp and risk falling to the dark side their pretty bad dudes anyway.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Just read through all three pages; another great thread!
In the examples sited, I wouldn't give one for the first instance, but would in the second (if the person carried through with it).
I found myself agreeing with parts of what each Masque and Chandra Mindarass wrote (where did both of them go, anyway?) I tend to lean more towards Chandra's view. I agree with Masque that my main goal is for everyone to have fun (more than simply being neutral), but - like Chandra - I have instances where I would give a DSP to a non Force-Sensitive character.
It's interesting to look at Grand Moff Tarkin in the Special Edition Sourcebook (who has 4 Force Points and 5 Dark side points), as well as Han (who by RotJ had 2 Force Points but no Dark Side points) in view of their actions (and what people discuss in this thread should warrant a DSP).
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