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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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(little humor first)..
Drat i am running out of reasons to not listen to you!! 
(humor off)
Ok. A few things.
I like making things like this, for those 'just in case' situations, or for when i have those rare uber bad guys come against the party, so don't think these are always happening... please.
Though to comment on some of your concerns...
| Quote: | | I never said the assassin was "spooked." I said that his SHOT could be FOILED by a sudden gust of wind |
Maybe not exactly spoke it, but it was the way i was percieving what you were saying. But i will agree, sudden gusts of wind MAY (not always, and certainly not most of the time either) foul a shot. From those sniper buddies i was on about, their average 'missed' shot cause of atmospheric conditions was 3 out of 10 shots IN those conditions. And let me re-iterate, i do agree, a gust of wind (high wind gust) IS unpredictable...
| Quote: | | But the sudden gust of wind cannot be completely compensated for except perhaps by firing several rounds in a loose grouping to allow for a greater chance of hitting the target |
Or by simply holding off on the shot.
| Quote: | | he bottom line is this: If you want to find some plausible way to cut your players even the slightest break, you'll do so. |
(warning. slight humor)
Oh Will i??? 
(slight humor off).
If that 'plausable way is present, and can be reasonabily/logically or believabily taken/used, then yes. But not just cause it was there... Example for. Shooting out the asteroid you are getting ready to crash into... Plausable... yes.
Logical... yes again, well unless you only have ion cannons...
Taken... only if the PCs think of it.
Example against.
BBEG just walking away after seeing the last pc fall to the ground..
Plausable... possible.
Logical.... no. It does not fit in with his 'cruel streak/capriciousness', and with his mentality, he would not leave a target or threat behind without making sure it was neutralized.
Taken... NO.
| Quote: | | There are ways of making "nasty" characters retain all the aura that they should possess while at the same time not having them simply walk in and wipe out the party. |
How??? That is what i am asking... And see above for how often they come accross someone like this..
| Quote: | | Perhaps the assasin is a bit more sadistic, and wants to make the players suffer more than kill them. Make them do trick shots that would just impress the players. |
EG the above.... Lets say, that assassin likes taking a group, and tortures all but one, and lets that one survive if he decides in what order his friends are tortured in. Or likes to hear their screams as he cuts out their eyes then rubs salt into the wound.
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Jedi Skyler
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Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | (little humor first)..
Drat i am running out of reasons to not listen to you!! |
That's alright! 8) As has been stated in other threads, this isn't about flaming each other. I'm seeing this particular thread as a place where we are hashing out issues that GMs the world over face as they run their campaigns. The more you've researched this, the better the game you'll run for your players. In the end, that equates to a more enjoyable experience for everyone around the table, including yourself. I, for one, salute your efforts to find these answers.
| Quote: | Quote:
But the sudden gust of wind cannot be completely compensated for except perhaps by firing several rounds in a loose grouping to allow for a greater chance of hitting the target
Or by simply holding off on the shot. |
You're correct there. A truly good marksman is going to wait until he believes he's achieved optimal conditions for his shot. The gust of wind is something that can either be rolled for to have, or it can be the plot device that allows someone to get seriously jacked up without snuffing their life completely, and it's something that's logically explainable. Plus, if you want to add a bit of mystery to it, the fouled shot could ALWAYS be attributed to the machinations of the Force... However, in the case you described with this crew who's dinking around with a Hutt, I personally would stay away from even hinting that it's the will of the Force for them to survive such colossal stupidity... 
| Quote: | | Maybe not exactly spoke it, but it was the way i was percieving what you were saying. |
It could have been simply the way I phrased things. I apologize for not being clear.
| Quote: | | How??? That is what i am asking... And see above for how often they come accross someone like this.. |
First, I'm glad you're not throwing this kind of baddie at your PCs all the time. And just to be clear, I didn't think you were. As to the how, I'll use the situation described, but change the outcome slightly.
"...All but one of the party has been mortally wounded; each is covered with blood from multiple points, though not a single shot was heard. The intact party member is casting about frantically, blaster drawn, trying to find their attacker; he is unable to spot anyone. Chaos reigns the streets as people are careening every which way in an attempt to get out of the kill zone. Beings of all races are screaming in terror; children are picked up by their parents, some people are being knocked down and trampled by dozens of feet and other appendages.
As the character is about to give up looking, his eyes light on the top of a tall building close to their position. He sees a solitary figure standing there, but can't make out any details. He frantically claws at his utility belt, finally freeing his macrobinoculars and bringing them up to his eyes. He adjusts the rangefinder and the image clears. He beholds a man standing there- just... standing. The stranger is wearing bounty hunter-style armor and is helmeted. From the man's posture and helmet position he appears to be looking directly at the carnage below. He is holding what appears to be a long-range sniper rifle. It becomes clear that he is indeed looking directly at the character as he brings his free hand up and draws a single finger across his neck. The figure then bends over calmly, places the rifle in a case and disappears from sight."
This could really screw up a party... armor and blast helmets are easily obtainable, and their appearance can be changed simply by painting them. The man was not completely identifiable since his face was hidden. Since he simply disappeared from view, it's not known if he descended into the building or took an airspeeder from the other side of the roof. He's remained very mysterious, but has clearly allowed himself to be seen by the party member he clearly allowed to remain unscathed so far, but has basically told him that the job's not done yet. Now the party has to heal up and decide what they're gonna do, but 1) They've been given a clear warning that they've screwed up, and 2) they've also been given a chance to do something about it. While some party members might see this particular instance as their party having been "wiped out," it can then be pointed out to them that they're still alive, so they might perhaps take this new lease on life to make some wiser decisions.
| Quote: | Quote:
Perhaps the assasin is a bit more sadistic, and wants to make the players suffer more than kill them. Make them do trick shots that would just impress the players.
EG the above.... Lets say, that assassin likes taking a group, and tortures all but one, and lets that one survive if he decides in what order his friends are tortured in. Or likes to hear their screams as he cuts out their eyes then rubs salt into the wound. |
I kinda like this one. Not completely, but kinda. (Perhaps it's cuz I can imagine the pain of that one. NOT pretty!) But in SW, eyes and limbs can be replaced cybernetically, so there's the chance of recovery... IF they can escape. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That's alright! Cool As has been stated in other threads, this isn't about flaming each other. I'm seeing this particular thread as a place where we are hashing out issues that GMs the world over face as they run their campaigns. The more you've researched this, the better the game you'll run for your players. In the end, that equates to a more enjoyable experience for everyone around the table, including yourself. I, for one, salute your efforts to find these answers. |
Finally, some one else, understands what i am trying to get at.... When i first joined the GenconLLC forums, i started asking these same (and i think a few more) questions. As someone said, in my defense... "it is not that this person is unwilling to hear us, but is willing to try different approaches to hear different points of view. Kind of like attacking a problem from more than one side."
| Quote: | | However, in the case you described with this crew who's dinking around with a Hutt, I personally would stay away from even hinting that it's the will of the Force for them to survive such colossal stupidity |
Precicesly why i did not have any warnings come to the parties force user (he was NOT one of those hit). Heck, as asked by someone else, did i not give a force vision.?? My answer was No. The force guides, but imo does not protect those who are in trouble from their own greed/stupidity...
| Quote: |
It could have been simply the way I phrased things. I apologize for not being clear. |
No problem... Glad for this chat...
| Quote: | First, I'm glad you're not throwing this kind of baddie at your PCs all the time. And just to be clear, I didn't think you were. As to the how, I'll use the situation described, but change the outcome slightly.
"...All but one of the party has been mortally wounded; each is covered with blood from multiple points, though not a single shot was heard. The intact party member is casting about frantically, blaster drawn, trying to find their attacker; he is unable to spot anyone. Chaos reigns the streets as people are careening every which way in an attempt to get out of the kill zone. Beings of all races are screaming in terror; children are picked up by their parents, some people are being knocked down and trampled by dozens of feet and other appendages.
As the character is about to give up looking, his eyes light on the top of a tall building close to their position. He sees a solitary figure standing there, but can't make out any details. He frantically claws at his utility belt, finally freeing his macrobinoculars and bringing them up to his eyes. He adjusts the rangefinder and the image clears. He beholds a man standing there- just... standing. The stranger is wearing bounty hunter-style armor and is helmeted. From the man's posture and helmet position he appears to be looking directly at the carnage below. He is holding what appears to be a long-range sniper rifle. It becomes clear that he is indeed looking directly at the character as he brings his free hand up and draws a single finger across his neck. The figure then bends over calmly, places the rifle in a case and disappears from sight."
This could really screw up a party... armor and blast helmets are easily obtainable, and their appearance can be changed simply by painting them. The man was not completely identifiable since his face was hidden. Since he simply disappeared from view, it's not known if he descended into the building or took an airspeeder from the other side of the roof. He's remained very mysterious, but has clearly allowed himself to be seen by the party member he clearly allowed to remain unscathed so far, but has basically told him that the job's not done yet. Now the party has to heal up and decide what they're gonna do, but 1) They've been given a clear warning that they've screwed up, and 2) they've also been given a chance to do something about it. While some party members might see this particular instance as their party having been "wiped out," it can then be pointed out to them that they're still alive, so they might perhaps take this new lease on life to make some wiser decisions. |
Youch... You have an almost deliciously evil mind... like me!! 8)
Though the only problem i can see with the above... If all but one are down to mortally wounded, and they are out at a tapcaf (which it seems like you were suggesting), where would they get med packed to become 'stabilized' from??
| Quote: | | But in SW, eyes and limbs can be replaced cybernetically, so there's the chance of recovery... IF they can escape. |
Yup.
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Jedi Skyler
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Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Youch... You have an almost deliciously evil mind... like me!!
Though the only problem i can see with the above... If all but one are down to mortally wounded, and they are out at a tapcaf (which it seems like you were suggesting), where would they get med packed to become 'stabilized' from?? |
It's not that I have an evil mind... I'm just able to think along those lines. In other words, if I were on the Hutt's repulsorsled I would definitely be pissed off, but I'd consider death too good for them- at least immediate death. I can appreciate Jabba's good humor at having Han Solo on his wall for a while. Had he the desire, he could thaw him at any time to torment him. Heck, had he survived he could have, on his deathbed, thawed Han out and then had him killed after he let Han see what all had happened while he was frozen, laughing all the way onto that big (and I mean BIG) repulsorsled in the sky.
| Quote: | | Precicesly why i did not have any warnings come to the parties force user (he was NOT one of those hit). Heck, as asked by someone else, did i not give a force vision.?? My answer was No. The force guides, but imo does not protect those who are in trouble from their own greed/stupidity... |
Now, I have to ask if the Force user was part of all these shenanigans... If so, then perhaps you should have called for a Sense Path roll for this individual. Unless he's a dark sider already, or unless he's not directly involved in harassing the Hutt, these events are definitely ones that SHOULD be giving him dark side points. That in itself would then have been a SERIOUS indicator to these people that what they were doing wasn't kosher. And in that instance, you would have been justified in giving a Force vision that was dark in its nature, but completely vague as to any specific danger. That too would have been a warning to them, but without you specifically telling them to knock it off. But for a Force user to be participating in such behavior is SERIOUSLY un-Jedi-like, so if he's aspiring to be one he's been seriously jeopardizing that ambition, if he's been active in all this tom foolery.
As for how they're to get medpacked... They're out in public, so it's entirely possible that businesses around the area have medpacks (for insurance reasons, if nothing else.) Unless the tapcafe is the only thing around for miles (which could be negated by airspeeding them to civilization) then it's not outside the realm of possibility that some good samaritans would rush to administer first aid until medical personnel could show up. In fact, such a delay in getting them healed might also serve to underscore the direness of their situation- someone who could strike at them (either in broad daylight in public OR out in the middle of nowhere) with impunity is serious business, and therefore a HUGE reason for some deliberation on the players' part.
| Quote: | (little humor first)..
Drat i am running out of reasons to not listen to you!! |
And that just means that you're running out of angles to approach this from, which means that you'll be WELL prepared to handle the next situation. And if you think of any more angles, you know where to come for advice! 8) |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now, I have to ask if the Force user was part of all these shenanigans.. |
Indirectly, yes. He was their ships pilot (unless in combat, in which case he went into engineering to help out), so was indirectly part of it...
For the session they raided the hutt's lair, he was Absent (had to go TAD) and so we had his character off learning a new advance skill...
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Jedi Skyler
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| First off, I'll bet that pissed everyone else off, since either A) He wasn't there to save their butts, or B) His character made it through just fine. Either way, if the Jedi was just going along with these activities without at least making some kind of stink about it, then he ought to at least have been in danger of some DSPs. If he hasn't suffered any yet, then perhaps you might want to make him have difficulties with this new skill he's off learning. Maybe he doesn't have any DSPs yet, but since he's been engaging in questionable activities, he could be teetering on the brink of getting some. That could definitely affect his learning- either preventing him from really learning it, or causing him to take much longer. (i.e. not allowing him to actually HAVE the power until the end of the next campaign. When he complains, explain why you came to that decision and also point out that he made out REAL easy, compared to the rest of the squad. If THAT doesn't shut him up, then perhaps he ought to get docked some CPs or something. Either way, if he wasn't actively protesting these activities at least some of the time (I don't believe he was ignorant of what was going on) then he should definitely have to pay for it somehow. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | First off, I'll bet that pissed everyone else off, since either A) He wasn't there to save their butts, or B) His character made it through just fine. Either way, if the Jedi was just going along with these activities without at least making some kind of stink about it, then he ought to at least have been in danger of some DSPs. |
IIRC he did earn 2 total DSPS for all his 'turning a blind eye' situations, especialy when both of them were when the pcs killed civilians who were transporting shipments (unknowingly) for the hutt. BOTH times the partyu just came in with guns a blazing, not even asking the 'enemy' to surrender, and iirc, all but 2 of the party earned a DSP for that. Heck 3 of the group were anticipating more than the one!!!...
| Quote: | | If he hasn't suffered any yet, then perhaps you might want to make him have difficulties with this new skill he's off learning. Maybe he doesn't have any DSPs yet, but since he's been engaging in questionable activities, he could be teetering on the brink of getting some. That could definitely affect his learning- either preventing him from really learning it, or causing him to take much longer. (i.e. not allowing him to actually HAVE the power until the end of the next campaign. When he complains, explain why you came to that decision and also point out that he made out REAL easy, compared to the rest of the squad. If THAT doesn't shut him up, then perhaps he ought to get docked some CPs or something. Either way, if he wasn't actively protesting these activities at least some of the time (I don't believe he was ignorant of what was going on) then he should definitely have to pay for it somehow. |
Interesting suggestion. But since it has been a long time since then, there is nothign i can do now....
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Jedi Skyler
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Right. I kinda suspected as much, but I thought you might appreciate the ideas for if/when something similar occurs in the future. He definitely should have gotten his head out of his fourth point of contact and awakened the group before they all got killed. If you were still running a game with his character, I'd personally make occasional random rolls to see if he suddenly suffered traumatic flashbacks to the death throes of his former squadmates. That'd serve him right- especially when such an event would be even more likely during circumstances that resembled the ones in which his partners were killed.
No, I'm not evil, but I can sure think up some good payback... |
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KageRyu
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Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm, I see the dead horse was brought out to be trotted about? I think it's safe to say, on the main issue of this topic, I have made clear and logical points, and I believe garhkal and myself have come to a bit of an understanding that better warnings/signs could have been available? So, I will say no more about that.
I would like to address this, in a way:
| garhkal wrote: | While i think about it, and rather than make a new thread for it..
How do you keep the competency/believability of an npc who is SUPPOSED to be 'nasty', while not being lethal? EG say someone does hire the 2nd best assassin in the sector.
By virtue of them being the second best, they have a 'level' of competency that shows they are deadly. But how do you show that, without killing??? IMO you cannot.
At gencon this year, the editor of one of my new modules (that premiered there) was letting me know of 'how much' he loved the premice for the module, the departure from the norm etc. But he felt the baddie, if played properly and competently would whipe out a party. THen he said, you need to still show his competence, but not do so in a lethal manner... when i asked how he would do that, he could not answer... |
I recently introduced a new NPC villain to my game. A Ubese warrior (True Ubese, Type-II atmosphere breather, with heavily modified, Dura-Steel reinforced armor, lots of gadgets, etc...). He is a cunning Warrior, and second in command of a force. He rates about the best in the sector in many skills (9D range) and really likes to get up close and personal.
When my players actually ran against him, they were doing a quick raid on his encampment, hoping to steal one of two XS-800 freighters. The plan was for the NPC mercs allied with the player to do distractionary tactics, while the PCs stole the ship...well...that didn't work...and after incapacitating the one Merc who had the reputation from the players as the ultimate hard-core badarse with a tangler grenade, one of the players started pot-shoting him from cover with a sniping blaster. In the ensuing fight, I had first this NPCs blaster rifle jam due to a complication, followed by his blaster pistol...an odd set of events. He then used one of his graple wires to steal the sniping blaster from the player sniping him (only about 40m away now) and, much to the chagrin of the player, began shooting with his own rifle. Well, a few rounds later, that jammed as well...oi! But, non-theless, the Ubese advanced undaunted, which really worried the player, who unhooked his grenade belt, priming all of his grenades, and dropped them, slowly crawling away in his wounded state... By this time, the Jedi was charging the Ubes, lightsaber drawn. The Ubese caught sight of him (all the sensors in his helmet) and turned, pulling a collabsable Force Pike from his belt, and extending it (I allow Force Pikes to parry lightsabers because of the Shield Technology incorporated into them). A vicious melee fight ensues, which consists of 2 rounds of the Jedi expending force points and really laying into this guy, while he maintains pure defense with the force pike, easily blocking and deflecting the lightsaber (sizing the Jedi up to see how good he is). Shortly after that, in a few moves, he had wounded the Jedi twice, and stunned him twice, droping him to near unconciousness. As he lifted the Jedi off the ground, Twin Vibro-knives extended from his right gauntlet, and he prepared to deliver a final blow, when Ji, an NPC swordsman who had been sneaking up on the Ubese, Lunged, drawing the vibro-katana across the Ubese's backs. Sparks flew, there was a hollow whump, gas and smoke began spewing from the Ubeses backpack as he staggered forward, dropping the Jedi, his respirator clicking and straining to draw breath...Ji had damaged the life support pack. The Ubese, making his first stamina roll, turned and shattered Ji's hip with a well placed Force-Pike hit, Ji had already been wounded, and this would have removed him from the fight (I use the new D6 core rule allowing a moderate Stamina check to stay concious on incapacitate, but at -3D to all actions). Well, Ji went tumbling into the bushes, and I rolled his stamina... In the meantime, the Jedi used Remain Concious and Control Pain, and was back on his feet, lightsaber in hand...he lunged... Another blow deflected, and a force pike strike to the temple...and the Jedi is down again... Ji Rises, saying "I'm not finished with you." The Grenades set by the gambler explode behind him, setting the forest ablaze at a dramatic moment, and another player and 2 NPCs begin moving in... Not knowing how bad Ji was wounded, and his respirator damaged, I had the Ubese decide to withdraw, as it made sense.
I feel that I easily demonstrated his competance and capability while not being lethal, and despite numerous complications and bad rolls on the Ubese's part. I would be willing to hazard a guess that my players will be extremely cautious of him should they meet again.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Oh, that sounds like a great combat...... And yes, it did IMO showcase his deadliness without being lethal.... well if you did not allow those stamina rolls, it might have been lethal...... 8)
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Oh, that sounds like a great combat...... And yes, it did IMO showcase his deadliness without being lethal.... well if you did not allow those stamina rolls, it might have been lethal...... 8) |
Too true, too true. However, I never have a rule that doesn't apply equally to the bad guys. There may come a time when they have him down to the wire, or score a lucky hit, and he just wont go down... that will just sweaten the pot
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:44 am Post subject: |
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I am bringing yet another good old thread to the fore front for all our new folk to comment on (yes wamp that means you!)
So for you, when do you see hints and such as being given? Do the players have to do anything to get them, or is it a gimmie?
Does what ever bad thing that prompted the warning, still happen even if they don't pick up on said warnings?
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I don't give any overt hints or warnings, but if my players start making dumb decisions, I assume I have failed to adequately explain the situation, and ask them to explain their actions, their motivations, and the circumstances, so that we're both on the same page.
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Because not everyone has the same level of knowledge concerning the SWU and depending on the needs of the story I will give hints by way of narration and universe explanation. An outright clue, no.
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Random_Axe
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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[threadcromancy rules]
Are we still referring to the original sniper scenario from your OP? I read the first page and completely align myself with the way you viewed the "contacts" as being sources for information, but not about to expose themselves to danger in order to warn the PCs of what they have heard (that's what they refer to as an "ally").
On the other hand! By unleashing sniper assassins on your party, regardless of how they might have warned themselves about the setup, is a bad move because it involves no "play" on behalf of the players. It removes the game element, and the result is that it removes the Player. Because with no warning, a hidden assassin-sniper equates to instant death and end of game. Not any part of any equation for fun.
I nevertheless applaud your adherence to the story-based developments, in that OF COURSE the embarrassed Hutt would DEFINITELY have hired experts for reprisal, but at the moment of the attack, I say there HAS to be a chance for a warning to go to the PCs.
In the OP, the party had gotten themselves into a "routine". This works to the benefit of both the Hunters and the Hunted! The hunters have time to set up a great ambush because they know where their target is going to be ahead of time, at any given time of day. But the PCs on that day should be given a PER check to notice "just something" a little out of place. Because their routine trains them about what IS in place or not.
Again, since the alternative is a simple, arbitrary, one-move removal of a player from the ongoing game, I would give a series of checks to the intended victim, PER requirements out of the blue, a Survival or Streetwise roll out of the blue, to allow the PC to notice some of the mundane NPCs acting funny or stand-offish. At that point you don't even need to go into any details -- even the fact that you are having them roll a SURVIVAL skill on their day at the market should set off some warning bells! THEN they can act and do something to save themselves. -- or not, but it's up to them at that point, not you. |
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