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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2025 1:08 am Post subject: The E-Wing |
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So, just for starters, I've never really liked the E-Wing, for one glaring reason: the engines are set way too low on the ship's center of mass, creating off-balance thrust. They're also way too exposed to attack for a ship with 5D Hull. There's a lot to like about the ship (particularly the version that got made nu-canon in Ahsoka), but the design really needs a re-work. If I could afford to commission someone to do it, I'd...1) Use the Ahsoka version as a baseline.
2). Give it main drives at the rear of the fuselage.
3). Keep the existing engines as auxiliary / maneuvering thrusters, but move them into the wing, rather than under it.
4). Put the outer wing tips (outboard of the engines themselves) on hinges so that they can elevate up to vertical for landing. Anyway, leaving aside my issues with its design, I'm strongly considering doing an updated version based on what we see in Ahsoka. Of course, I've already done one alternate stat version of the E-Wing as a Y-Wing replacement attack starfighter. However, as I discussed here, I've found a new ship that IMO fits much better as a New Republic-era Y-Wing replacement.
So, after some consideration, I'm thinking of doing a little stat-swapping:I had considered dropping the Astromech, but the Ahsoka version does have what appears to be an externally mounted Astromech in the traditional location above and behind the cockpit, so I'm thinking of dropping the Legends Canon aspect of the Astromech being in an enclosed compartment (although that idea will be moved over to the I-Wing, which doesn't have a visible astromech). I'm also considering cutting Consumables, since it's inferred that the E-Wing is supposed to operate closer to its bases than other Alliance / Republic ships do.
As far as armament, the E- will have dual Heavy Blaster Cannon and dual Warhead Launchers. I haven't yet decided if the existing version truly merits a 5D Hull (on account of the exposed engines mounted on fragile wings), but I am strongly considering dropping it to at least 4D.
If you have any thoughts on this, feel free to chime in.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Impaler
Cadet
Joined: 25 Jan 2025
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2025 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I can certainly agree with the thust imbalance issue, even if we assume the fuselage mounted rear engine is the majority of thrust wing mounted engines still apply unavoidable torque.
A possible way to save the physics which your own wing tip moving idea inspired would be to assume that the wings are hinged at the point where they connect to the fuselage and the common depiction of the craft is the maximum downflexed positions of the wings not a fixed position (maybe the wing tips are actually landing gear and this is the landing configuration?). An upward flexed position could thus bring the wing mounted engines to a equally off-center 'crane stance' position above the fuselage. Thus the wing changes would give a very strong upward and downward pitching and add to the crafts manuverability. Lastly the E-wing has always been shown with odd little 'support struts' connectign the wing to the fuselage, if we interpret these to be hydrolic-rams they would move the wings exactly as I've described. This is admitedly all pure ret-con but it feels very StarWarsy to me to have this kind of movable bits on a fighter.
Also I did not like in the Asoka versions removal of the top laser cannon, that simply leaves the craft with too little firepower to be a credible 'upgrade in all aspects' attempt over the X-wing as it's lore claims. I could just about buy the idea that laser cannon tech has improved by this time to allow the small cannons on the E-wing to be as powerful as the X-wings MUCH larger cannons, but halving the count from 4 to 2 on top of that is too much. I'm thus naturally partial to depictions of the E-wing which beef up that central cannon to near X-wing cannon size as that feels more like a late WW2 fighter armed with both machine guns and cannons and it will give the fighter more flexibility against both light and fast targets as well as slower shielded ones, again giving the design the credibility to have been atleast trying to exceed an X-wings firepower.
Yes I know people have been b**** for years about the impracticality of that location over the canopy as it would impeed opening the canopy (b**** that the Asoka creators clearly heard and caved too). But the obvious solution that no one seems to have considered is that the laser cannon is on a swivel mount that would let it rotate out of the way as well as to fire backwards or sideways again improving the crafts fire coverage and self-defence capability. I would not assume the cannon can elevate though as that would nessesitate a real turret and be much bulkier then what is seen, with just a swivel we can assume most of it is inside the craft and flush with the hull. |
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FVBonura
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 221
Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2025 9:40 am Post subject: |
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I believe I heard my name mentioned.
If you look in "The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels", you will see diagonal wing struts. You will also see these in the "Dark Empire" comics. One thrust solution could be that those diagonal struts will elevate the pitch of the wings for space travel. This would bring the engines to the mass centerline. The wings can then be pitched downward for supersonic or transsonic flight in atmosphere. With the wings pitched down they can potentially capture more air to form a lift cushion under the aircraft in the atmospheric regime. I used similar wing form on my hornet interceptor revision project with the help of my two technical advisors who actually worked on real aircraft and one of them works in aircraft/spacecraft fabrication. The wing articulation can also serve for parking and space saving on carriers. Landing gear will have to be mounted on the fuselage to accommodate this.
The bigger problem with the design is the zenith (dorsal) canon. Every time this weapon system is fired, it is going to blind the pilot, which means that you will have to integrate an automatic canopy dimming system to reduce the flash from the canon. Think transition lenses. The zenith cannon also makes cockpit canopy articulation a bear.
I’ve never been a big fan of this design. Cam Kennedy is a gifted illustrator, but many of his aircraft/spacecraft designs are "bizarre" to be kind. I’m sure you know my opinion on drawing influences from Ahsoka. I would study the original artwork by Cam Kennedy and build from there. Troy Vigil did change a few elements for the essential guide, which would probably be best ignored. If anything, considering the low slung engines, making more aerodynamic decisions in the overall design would probably be an improvement.
Those are my recommendations. Then again I would probably prefer to focus more on a nameless ship, that only has artwork in the comics or such, with no game stats, that would add to the lexicon of existing fighters.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16371
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2025 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Impaler wrote: | | I can certainly agree with the thrust imbalance issue, even if we assume the fuselage mounted rear engine is the majority of thrust wing mounted engines still apply unavoidable torque. |
If they’re staying thrusters, I’d rather see them as auxiliary maneuvering thrusters ala the Defender. Ideally, I’d like to see the thrusters moved off the wing completely, with laser cannon pod mounts in their place.
| Quote: | | A possible way to save the physics which your own wing tip moving idea inspired would be to assume that the wings are hinged at the point where they connect to the fuselage |
The issue I have with that is that too many moving parts undercut the high Hull by adding in more points of failure. Every moving part is something that can break (see the B-Wing), thus reducing effective Hull. The E-Wing should be simple and rugged.
| Quote: | | Also I did not like in the Asoka versions removal of the top laser cannon, that simply leaves the craft with too little firepower to be a credible 'upgrade in all aspects' attempt over the X-wing as it's lore claims. |
The problem is, the E-Wing’s lore is all over the place. An “escort fighter” implies a ship designed to protect something larger / slower / more vulnerable, and the E-Wing only has half the operational range of the X- (x2 Hyperdrive compared to x1, with both having 5 days of Consumables). The impression I get is that it’s trying to be too many things at once, resulting in a space camel (as in, a horse designed by committee).
As to the dorsal laser cannon, I think Frank’s reasoning as to why it was a bad idea in the first place are sufficient rebuttal. I wouldn’t mind a pair of heavy lasers on the wings (for hitting big targets) paired with a dual blaster or autoblaster in the nose (for engaging light fighters and missiles), but the top cannon is a bad design for multiple reasons.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16371
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2025 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| FVBonura wrote: | | I’ve never been a big fan of this design. |
Me either. There are aspects of it that are interesting, but on the whole it’s a poor design, and I’m not sure how much (or if) a “fixed” version would resemble the original. I keep hoping someone like Fractalsponge gets a bug in his ear to fix it (his I-7 Howlrunner is a beautiful design), but I certainly can’t afford to pay his rates to do it.
| Quote: | | I’m sure you know my opinion on drawing influences from Ahsoka. |
Indubitably. Still, for all of my issues with the design, the version we got in Ahsoka is by far the best depiction of the E-Wing ever.
[/quote]Those are my recommendations. Then again I would probably prefer to focus more on a nameless ship, that only has artwork in the comics or such, with no game stats, that would add to the lexicon of existing fighters.[/quote]
I usually need a muse to inspire me to write stats for it. The E-Wing is right on the edge of being stat-worthy, but it’s just so… wrong that actually putting something in writing feels like pulling teeth.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Impaler
Cadet
Joined: 25 Jan 2025
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2025 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not really sold on the 'blinds the pilot' argument. Arn't the tips of the laser cannons of an X-wing and Y-wing well within the field of view of those crafts pilots as well? Likewise operators of laser cannon turrets never seem to need eye protection despite their bolts being generated at under a meter away right in front of the gunners face. Only the capitol ship weapons on Imperials ships seem to need a helmet to protect the operator and that's vastly larger then any starfighter weapon. StarWars seems to narrativly treat laser cannon flashes as no more serious then the tracers of a machine gun.
So I find no in-universe justification that the E-wings overhead cannon would be a blinding issue at all, and if it were their are certainly simple mitigations (flash suppressors cup) that would handle it. Also I do not see any need for canopy to block the flash, Pilots do infact already wear a helmet with a visor/goggles that would protect their eyes, likely because ENEMY laser cannon flashes that is actually pointed AT them are far more likely to be blinding so eye protection is already a standard feature. So this blinding issue all comes off as inconsistently applied nit-picking.
| Quote: | | The issue I have with that is that too many moving parts undercut the high Hull by adding in more points of failure. Every moving part is something that can break (see the B-Wing), thus reducing effective Hull. The E-Wing should be simple and rugged. |
Again I don't see this as justified, Rebel ships have shields as their main defense so can afford to have moving parts even if it dose compromise the hull in-universe (which is it's self questionable, most lore I can find complain about high maintence costs for B-wings fiddly rotating bits not weak hulls), but in any event Rebels clearly DO choose to make that trade off when they design/select their fighter craft. So are we aiming to create the craft the Rebels would have made or are we inserting ourselves into their place and making the choices the we think they 'should' have made?
The X-wing has twice the number of movable wings with engines, and it still comes in at 4D, so an E-wing with articulating wings should atleast match that. You think it needs to stat out at 5D, which is consistent with trying to surpass an X-wing so I find that reasonable. But I'd say an apeal to simply thickening hull structures and plating should be enough to get to 5D with articulation present, stats for advanced X-wings varients go that high, though you might not consider such stats legit.
For me assuming articulations that while not ever visually seen in prior media but otherwise do not change the vehicles shape are preferable over any altering of the shape, change the shape too much and it's a new craft entirly. Lastly you can just remain silent on the whole engine/thrust issue and stat out a vehicle to your liking and let the players imaginations fill in the details, I guess that depends on how much detail they expect from you though and how much the unresolved issue nags at your concience.
| Quote: | | The problem is, the E-Wing’s lore is all over the place. |
That is indeed the case, even visuals conflict badly and it is an unfortunately byproduct of a comic book origin combined with inconsist writing, but what I think makes the most sense in-universe is that the E-wing is an attempt to make a replacement for the X-wing and would have been designed to fill it's roles and to exceed it's performance 'in all aspects', that point is fairly consistent in the lore I can find as are the teething issues followed by eventual widespread use which indicates the design largely acomplished its goals. When the lore describes 'escort fighter' this just seems to be the New Republic most pressing NEED and was at the top of the requirement list which also included everything ELSE such as strike-fighter (thus the huge torpedo load) and space-superiority. Think of it like the StarWars equivlient of the P-51 Mustang, long range for escorting was an essential requirement but that is ontop of being an overall excellent muliti-role high performance fighter that exceeded everything before it. In aircraft terminology escort dose not imply slowness or obsolessence the way it dose for navies.
You might choose instead to belive that the New Republic put out an order for a more specialized fighter which was never intended to be anything but that escort mission, then you would end up with a very different vehicle which would NOT be expected to exceed the X-wing in all aspects, but would instead make many compromises for that role (no strike capability for example) and presumably be cheaper then the multi-role X-wing. This line of thought is the only way I could see a class 2 hyperdrive being allowed as every Rebel fighter has had class 1 for nearly a generation by this point so is the equivilent of ordering a propeller driven fighter plane in todays world. Honestly the most likely source of that class 2 stat is that some idiot saw that X-wings had a class 1 and thought that 2 was twice as fast  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16371
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Impaler wrote: | | So this blinding issue all comes off as inconsistently applied nit-picking. |
A more concrete issue is having a heavy energy weapon have to bend in half all to open the cockpit hatch. All kinds of potentially delicate connections - both electrical and piping - would have to be designed and built around this one weird design choice, which creates more potential points of failure, not to mention having two different assembly processes for the guns going into the E-Wing production lines and post-production logistics. Way better to go the route of other weapons and have a single type of laser cannon that doesn't require a weird mounting system to not get in the way of the cockpit.
| Quote: | | Again I don't see this as justified |
This is basic level design for anything. The more points of failure something has, the greater the potential for something to break or stop working if it's damaged. Shields certainly provide some protection, but the E-Wing only has 1D to bolster its 5D Hull.
| Quote: | | But I'd say an appeal to simply thickening hull structures and plating should be enough to get to 5D with articulation present, stats for advanced X-wings variants go that high, though you might not consider such stats legit. |
I don't. The general theme running through the stats is +1D = x2, which would make an E-Wing twice as tough as an X-Wing, on top of being able to match a TIE Interceptor in performance while carrying much greater mass. Stat improvement should be a lot more incremental, moving forward a pip or two at a time, not a sudden, massive leap.
| Quote: | | I think makes the most sense in-universe is that the E-wing is an attempt to make a replacement for the X-wing |
And yet advanced model X-Wings continue in service decades after Endor in both Legends and Canon settings. Having the two parallel lines makes more sense if they're designed for different missions with a high degree of overlap (that just so happens to include a lot of superiority combat).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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FVBonura
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 221
Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:52 am Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill, Google "E-wing Dark Empire", in image search. You might be surprised to find many artists re-envision the fighter and fix many of the same things we have issue with. With a laser cannon sticking out of its forehead, this ship is quite the unicorn.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16371
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2025 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, I had more luck Googling “E-Wing Fan Art”, and even then, nothing really jumped out at me as a great solution.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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