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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | @CRMcNeill,
Yes, very well said. It's what I was trying to say but didn't get the wording quite right. |
Glad to be of service. 
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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In order to "defend" the force power in question, there is nothing about it that states that it calls on the dark side of the force more so than lightsaber combat.
it does not give an automatic DSP like force lightning, and unlike Lightsaber combat it gives DSP if used to kill.
However the Teepo jedi does not train Lightsaber combat to any signifcant degree and in stead use Blasters, having the blaster fill the role of the lightsaber.
Now regardless of the polarities of the force it makes little to no sense that a skill that does not spesifically call on the darkside gives a DSP if used to kill, when the jedi have a Power that dos npt call on the darkside and that does not give a DSP unless (seriously) abused.
those differences is what I mean, we have a group of no dark jedi who follow the jedi teachings but use blasters and not lightsabers, but becuse of a game mechanic written several years beforehand these teepo paladins regardless of them not being dark, are dark defaulted dark once uisng their power in combat if the enemy dies becuse they use their "power" and kill, when jedi who use their power and kill with another type of weapon only get the same DSP if they kill the helpless, murder nand abuse the power..... |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Mamatriad, you have already been answered by multiple people, you just do not like the answers or the way the force works in SW D6. Also, to be clear-
| Quote: | the closest power to come close to be a blaster-version of lightsaber combat is the above force shot.
this gives and automatic dark side point on use, always. |
Your words about getting DSP just for using the power power and now you are going to hang your hat on a technicality - for a force tradition that isn't even official or cannon (teepo). Additionally I am fairly certain Force Shot is not an official D6 Force Power but either Fan Content or D20 Conversion so my statement would be just as relevant to this power as using this power to try to argue the point of the rules being vague..
If you use the force to kill - you get a DSP if you are a Force User, that's how it works. If you want to change it in your game that is your prerogative as GM.
Please stop trying to muddy the argument with Fan Content, D20 conversions, or unofficial sources.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:12 am Post subject: |
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The Teepo write-up dates back to, as near as I can tell, the old AOL SWRPG Listserv. They aren't official, and their stats were never published by WEG. As such, I don't consider the specifics of the write-up to be binding on the functioning of DSPs.
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Mamatried
Commodore
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Lightsaber combat doe not give a DSP even if the jedi uses the Lightsaber combat power and kills his opponent. There are rules as to not kill a helpless individual, which makes perfects sense.
Lightsaber combet is in no way calling on the darkside for this power and all or at least most jedi use them since their weapon more or less depends on it.
While also not canon we have the zeison sha, telekinetic experts, thet use force impued weapons in combat, and these can even be guided by the force.
it has been stated incorrectly imo that the mere killing is dark, when it is clarely not, we do not see jedi falling to the darkside in scores of 1000s a day, but they kill they are in wars, not all the enemies are droids......but they are not dark. It must be a glithch in the rules or something?
or is it possible that there are actual combat powers that will and can kill the ooponenet without these being automatic dark?
So what is the the difference between using the baster as your weapon ( DP CHior begins singing) or a Lightsaber or a discblae whcc somehow is accpted of course you can use the force with that weapon, of course you can fight, and of course unless you "f-up" merely killing/Defeating your enemy gives no DSPS, just don't use the balster.
so in short what is the difference in channleing force through weapon A and what is the difference in channeling the force theoruh weapon B?
Igf any thing I wiuls give all jedi DSPs that don't use this power, sinc there is no normal stun setting on a lightsaber making it always deadly, but I flip a switch on the balster and I now stun my enemy....of I use a blaster so I still ger DSPS |
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pakman
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Mamatried - you have a lot of rationalization in your posts - clearly you have been seduced by the darkside.
While humorous- it is not far from how the darkside is supposed to work.
"but I had to do this in order to..." With the force and the dark side, the ends do no justify the means. as the rules are presented.
STRAIGHT out of the rules when describing the jedi, it says killing is wrong and jedi should do everything to avoid it.
to quote "...a death is a stain upon a jedi's spirit".
That stain - could be a darkside point - awarded by the gm if he feels the player did not act in accordance to that group's norm for how jedi should act.
Now, each group has to decide how they want to handle the dark side - if your gm and other players want to do something different - then do it. just don't try and pretend you are using the game as written.
(ironically - my group uses an alternative dark side mechanic, but we are fully aware that we are straying away from raw, and have balanced our system for us).
Finally, if you want to use the force to be better with a blaster, use enhance attribute on agility. done.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Mamatried - you have a lot of rationalization in your posts - clearly you have been seduced by the darkside.
While humorous- it is not far from how the darkside is supposed to work.
"but I had to do this in order to..." With the force and the dark side, the ends do no justify the means. as the rules are presented.
STRAIGHT out of the rules when describing the jedi, it says killing is wrong and jedi should do everything to avoid it.
to quote "...a death is a stain upon a jedi's spirit".
That stain - could be a darkside point - awarded by the gm if he feels the player did not act in accordance to that group's norm for how jedi should act.
Now, each group has to decide how they want to handle the dark side - if your gm and other players want to do something different - then do it. just don't try and pretend you are using the game as written.
(ironically - my group uses an alternative dark side mechanic, but we are fully aware that we are straying away from raw, and have balanced our system for us).
Finally, if you want to use the force to be better with a blaster, use enhance attribute on agility. done. |
there is a difference of killing your opponent in a fair fight, we know that jedi do this all the time and they do not suffer the corruption of the dark side.
however if a jedi defeated a foe and like with anakin and dooku then yes of course that is a dark side point, but that is different form using the force through the lightsaber combat power and in the fight, like obi wan did when he "killed" maul in the duel or when yoda with his lightsaber, using the lightaber combat power to block and parry the shots from the clones, he decaptiated and killed more than 6 , if by merely killing for a jedi is a DSP then Yoda is a darksider.
so if a jedi can use the force to guide his actions with a stick, and suffer no ill effects, he can at the same time not use the force to guide is actions with the sling...that makes little sense.
I am not arguing uing force lighting and not get a dark side point, I am however arguing that if you can use the force and we know that Jedi have killed more than 6 human/sentients with a lightsaber in combat, in fair fights, and not killed the wounded and the helpless, which would of course be a dark act and give a darkside point.
then my issue is this: I swap the tool I have in my hand with another tool and somehow this now becomes a dark and vile evil act?
becuse there is no equivilent to lightaber combat in the concept of blasters, there are however powers related to blasters, that does not in any way say or indicate that the power is any more light or dark than lightsaber combat
but if used to kill it automatically gives and DSp, not if like in Lightssaber combat if used to kill a wounded/hlepless, those two are very very different
and when the rezponse is that killing throuh the force is dark always, then we have to look at "all" survibing oder 55 jedi are dark, depa blaba died fallen so far down inot darkness that maybe only vader and palpy would be worse, since she more or less slaughtered clones in defense of her students. and again refering to Yoda above.
all those acts are killing using light saber combat power, and not dark, and when a power is doing the "exact" same thing, offering the "exact" same combat options to a blaster then this is vile and evil, how does that make any sense? |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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@Mamatried
This will be my Last response, and here is why:
1)Blasters -
Force Sensitive and force using characters are not prohibited, anywhere in the rules from using blasters. Luke Skywalker uses a blaster in the original trilogy, and even kills sentients. No where in the rules does it say you will get a DSP for using a blaster (or any other type of weapon in combat against hostile and armed opponents) and killing them.
2)Lightsaber Combat-
The rules already extensively cover this and provide ways for a Jedi to avoid a killing blow. Further, a Jedi is not forced to add his control dice to his damage, and I have had force players ask to withhold their Control from damage out of fear of overkill and gaining a DSP. There is so much more already in the rules on this I do not care to further elaborate.
3)Force Shot - I have looked up and it is indeed a House Rule power I could not even find original attribution for, and found several different variations of. One common thing I found listed in several was:
| Quote: | | Warning: Anyone who uses this power to harm a helpless or unarmed character receives a Dark Side Point. |
So you do not get a DSP for just using the power, or even using the power to kill an opponent you are fighting - you get it for killing someone helpless or unarmed. Lightsaber Combat does not even have this warning, but I guarantee you, in any of my games, if a Jedi or force using character strikes down helpless or unarmed people be it with his lightsaber, a blaster, a melee weapon, or by intentionally landing his X-wing on them - whether he used the force or not, he is getting DSP. Further this shows you have twice now misrepresented this power to try to justify not awarding DSP in certain situations.
4)Teepo Jedi - Teepo are non canon, non official, and a fan made tradition, however, Given you went to this to try to argue your point, I figured you might be looking to use these and pointed you to a number of resources for incorporating them into your game. There are even more sources and D6 attempts to govern these out there, some in this very forum by one of the members who has since become one with the force himself. Even though I disagree with this tradition I tried to be helpful in providing you references to use them - but this was clearly not your intention at any point.
You simply do not like the D6 DSP rules. You want to justify, imho from the content of this thread, running a force using murder hobo campaign. You do not want to discuss the rules, you want to argue until you are agreed with. In your games, you can do whatever you want, break whatever rules you want. Me, however, I will not continue to even attempt to discuss a topic further where the OP and primary person in contention is twisting wording and misrepresenting details to try to make the point.
Good luck with your SWD6 games.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | @Mamatried
This will be my Last response, and here is why:
1)Blasters -
Force Sensitive and force using characters are not prohibited, anywhere in the rules from using blasters. Luke Skywalker uses a blaster in the original trilogy, and even kills sentients. No where in the rules does it say you will get a DSP for using a blaster (or any other type of weapon in combat against hostile and armed opponents) and killing them.
2)Lightsaber Combat-
The rules already extensively cover this and provide ways for a Jedi to avoid a killing blow. Further, a Jedi is not forced to add his control dice to his damage, and I have had force players ask to withhold their Control from damage out of fear of overkill and gaining a DSP. There is so much more already in the rules on this I do not care to further elaborate.
3)Force Shot - I have looked up and it is indeed a House Rule power I could not even find original attribution for, and found several different variations of. One common thing I found listed in several was:
| Quote: | | Warning: Anyone who uses this power to harm a helpless or unarmed character receives a Dark Side Point. |
So you do not get a DSP for just using the power, or even using the power to kill an opponent you are fighting - you get it for killing someone helpless or unarmed. Lightsaber Combat does not even have this warning, but I guarantee you, in any of my games, if a Jedi or force using character strikes down helpless or unarmed people be it with his lightsaber, a blaster, a melee weapon, or by intentionally landing his X-wing on them - whether he used the force or not, he is getting DSP. Further this shows you have twice now misrepresented this power to try to justify not awarding DSP in certain situations.
4)Teepo Jedi - Teepo are non canon, non official, and a fan made tradition, however, Given you went to this to try to argue your point, I figured you might be looking to use these and pointed you to a number of resources for incorporating them into your game. There are even more sources and D6 attempts to govern these out there, some in this very forum by one of the members who has since become one with the force himself. Even though I disagree with this tradition I tried to be helpful in providing you references to use them - but this was clearly not your intention at any point.
You simply do not like the D6 DSP rules. You want to justify, imho from the content of this thread, running a force using murder hobo campaign. You do not want to discuss the rules, you want to argue until you are agreed with. In your games, you can do whatever you want, break whatever rules you want. Me, however, I will not continue to even attempt to discuss a topic further where the OP and primary person in contention is twisting wording and misrepresenting details to try to make the point.
Good luck with your SWD6 games. |
none of this is my point, I do not in any way disagree with any of this.
However I find if hard to fathom logically that if I use power+tool A then this is dark, while I do the exact same thing using power and tool B (canon) and this is not dark.
I have never said that killing an helplesss or in any way murdering anyone is not a DSP, I would even go as far as award multiple DPS in som cases.
What I am reacting to is the "if used then automaitc DPS!" when the power fan based, EU or canon is Logically based on a sub tradition, it is more or less if not identically give the exact same opetions in combat, but for ranged vs melee, and then that is so radically wrong and twisted that it must be wrong.
I agree that a jedi that needlessly, even in the heat of combat kills his opponent should get a dsp, but if the same jedi can kill "fairly" with a lightsaber and still use the aspects of lightsaber combat, maybe for his defense, or even for his damage, I would find it strange that if they were meant to not kill that they would enhance the damage on a weapon that ignores most materials unless it was in fact to allow them kill when needed?
But if the same effects are applied to another tool, in this case a blaster then the changing of tool alone, adds the following " useing this skill to injure or kill and opponent gives a DSP" not using this skill to kill needlessly, or a harmless or otherwise what was mentioned in the above response.
But the jedi who use this power and in fair faight kills his opponent, does not get an autmatic DPS, howevrr he will get get DSP even if not using the force if killing willy nelly. but this is not the case I argue, as I agree with this.
I am saying that would removing the automatic DSP for the mere use of a NON DARK power really be the same as allowing free use to indicriminately kill and maim without DSP, or will allow a "balster jedi" or force trandion to use this weapon as a repalcement for his lightsaber, kill when he MUST and adhere to the general rules of Light/Dark, where of course murdering harmless, surrendered or otherwise gives a DSP.
But I suppose to some the tool used matter as the blade is good but the bolt is bad |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Wrong.
Here's the text from the 2R&E Rulebook, pg. 84:When a character commits evil while spending a Force Point, the character loses the Force Point permanently. The character does receive a Dark Side Point. (See "Dark Side Points.")
Examples of committing evil include:
• Killing a helpless innocent.
• Causing unnecessary, gratuitous injury.
• Killing except in self-defense or the defense of others.
• Using the Force while angry or filled with hate.
(Force-sensitive characters receive Dark Side Points any time they commit evil* since they are closely attuned to the ways of the Force — both its light and dark sides. Force-sensitive characters must be very careful or they will be consumed by the dark side.)
*Emphasis Mine. A Jedi who kills a helpless innocent will receive a DSP regardless of what weapon they use to do so. Just because it is explicitly written into one home-brewed weapon-specific power, but not a WEG-published one doesn't change the base-level rule for DSPs themselves.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Wrong.
Here's the text from the 2R&E Rulebook, pg. 84:When a character commits evil while spending a Force Point, the character loses the Force Point permanently. The character does receive a Dark Side Point. (See "Dark Side Points.")
Examples of committing evil include:
• Killing a helpless innocent.
• Causing unnecessary, gratuitous injury.
• Killing except in self-defense or the defense of others.
• Using the Force while angry or filled with hate.
(Force-sensitive characters receive Dark Side Points any time they commit evil* since they are closely attuned to the ways of the Force — both its light and dark sides. Force-sensitive characters must be very careful or they will be consumed by the dark side.)
*Emphasis Mine. A Jedi who kills a helpless innocent will receive a DSP regardless of what weapon they use to do so. Just because it is explicitly written into one home-brewed weapon-specific power, but not a WEG-published one doesn't change the base-level rule for DSPs themselves. |
and I have never argued otherwise or that is should be otherwise,
but we have here a force power meant for this fan based 7eu whatever tradition that are different in the use of blaster over lightsaber.
Nothing in what I am arguing has anything remotely to do with the above as I am sure you agree that even with the above done 100% light side you can still kill in a fight, a jedi is still a warrior he can still kill.
so it is not about the killing of the Examples of committing evil include:
• Killing a helpless innocent.
• Causing unnecessary, gratuitous injury.
• Killing except in self-defense or the defense of others.
• Using the Force while angry or filled with hate.
It is about using a power that is NOT a dark side power like injure/kill or force lightinging, but a combat enhanment like lightsaber combat. and one is naturally dsp on "abuse>" as in all ove the above and more, but is NOT by mere use a DSP worthy power, and not even if sued to kill unless used to kill with anger etc, but any jedi that for any reason using his lightsaber and lightsaber combat does not sutomaitcally and without exception gain a DSP becuse he happned to kill his opponent in combat.
<BUT> if you do the exact same thing, with the same exact limitations, on not murdering the helpless, not killing unless elf defense which a fair deadly combat it, or did Luke acumulate a ton of DSP by uing the force to kill a million + people that was not a direct threat to him in any way?
most will argune he did not, it was a fair fight, kill or be killed, self defense if you will, good vs evil.
so the mere taking of a life does not alone warrnt a DSP, not does it alone if the force is used, only if it is used in a certain dark way, like the examples above and others and that is nothing I would change or think should,
But to kill with the sitck is good, to even shoot with the blaster is bad....and no it is not bexue you call on the darkside any more than you with any enchanithin of a weapon unless a sith spesific power, this is not force lighting, this to actually use a non fan traditon equaally a problem.
I followed the rules stated, there ANY KILLING for ANY REASON with use of the force BUT NOT LIGHTSBER COMBAT my player's Zeisin Sha would get a DSP everytime he used his telekinesis power to guide weapon, as is how they do it, but should he happen to kill by using this for any reason whatpever then this an automatic DSP, he made it past the fist combat phase, being unlucky to roll high enough on his damage roll 7 times on 7 enemies, and fell to the darkside, needless to say the player wanted to play on, but becuse there is no excptetion, even though these are statec, then the mere use of another power than lightsaber combat will always and without eception be a DSP, redering any and all forceuser unbale to kill for any reason, as self defense is fine unless this is not defined as combat and not while using any form of weapon other than the lightsaber,
Or maybe, if the "rules" regarding the light side and the dark side is followed, and a force used ONLY kills ins elf defesne and never ever calles on the darks side I think it is reasonale to not award a DSP to this even if they choose to not use a lightsaber with their force use. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Mamatried - you have a lot of rationalization in your posts - clearly you have been seduced by the darkside.
While humorous- it is not far from how the darkside is supposed to work.
"but I had to do this in order to..." With the force and the dark side, the ends do no justify the means. as the rules are presented. |
You are just now figuring out that Mamatried is on the Dark Side? 
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | pakman wrote: | Mamatried - you have a lot of rationalization in your posts - clearly you have been seduced by the darkside.
While humorous- it is not far from how the darkside is supposed to work.
"but I had to do this in order to..." With the force and the dark side, the ends do no justify the means. as the rules are presented. |
You are just now figuring out that Mamatried is on the Dark Side? |
Far from it, but I can not see how a person killing in self defense with a lgihtsaber is not dark, but if the same jedi killed with a balster he is automatically dark (using the force power in both cases)
but I am sure the tool in had is one of the factors governing the light and dark axis. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Because you’re insisting something is official when it isn’t, and this your basic premise is flawed. There is no official power that mandates a DSP for killing an attacker with a blaster. This has been stated multiple times so far in this topic alone.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Because you’re insisting something is official when it isn’t, and this your basic premise is flawed. There is no official power that mandates a DSP for killing an attacker with a blaster. This has been stated multiple times so far in this topic alone. |
Which is why I posted this in gamemasters, since it is a game master topic in my oppion on how to with fan made, canon or other scourses.
I argued a fan based power and force tradion, much like 90% of the content here.
I never argue that this skill is canon, but the "canon" point of view and what is described and argued is that if a jedi kill in self defense this is of course not an automatic eveil act, even if he use his "combat skill" wich is Lightsaber combat.
I argue that the same jedi by canon, killing his opponnent in self defense with another weapon, and like with lightsaber combat, this being "enhanced" by the force and this somehow is deemed to be an eveil act.
I argue the two acts are identical with only variable really being the tool used with the natural force adaptation, and as such I can not see that these powers should be any different.
To use a more canon, and less pire fan made, we can still look to the Zeison Sha, he use his discblade and it is diescribed that these are in fact used in together with telekinesis, guding the weapon, aka enchancing the weapon through the force, kills in self defense, or in defense of others, etc etc, then this can only happen 6 times acording to the consensus here, as each of these kills will be at a distance, hard to call "self defense" in the same way as in melee, and becuse the weapon is actually more or less useless without the force, a one time use weapon at that, then by the arguments here and byt "canon" consesnus, becuse they use the force on the wapon, and thus use the weapon to kill their enemies they by the rules of a cap on 6 DSP before falling to the Dark Side, they all fall if they happend to be attacked by a group, ot had to attack a group.
On the other hand, if a jedi were to throw his lightsaber or otherwise use a "ranged" attack like during order 66, where his attacks, if these are reflected blaster bolts could kill, this is naturally not in any considered neither an evil act or dark, and I have never heard anyone argue this, but I have time and time again heard the claim that killing through the force unless self defense is a DSP, but it is always and more or less exclusively tied to lightsaber combat power.
I say that any force power that is not a dark side power, but is a "combat enhancement" should never have an automatic DSP, even if used to kill becuse Lightsaber combat which is exactly that does not have an automatic DSP on kills, as a self defense kill is not susally considered a dark act and DSP worty....but telekinesis or other powers not dark, are then argued that yes they give DSP on "any" kill including slef defense and if following the jedi way 100% becuse these are somehow channeled by the darks side enve if it does not say so, and every time the argument is that killing is wrong, killing and urder and so and so.
I argue that there should be no canon/eu/fan ot otherwise difference in killing self defense with a non dark pwer and a tool even when the tool is not spesifically a lightsaber.
The "warnings" are often taken for more than what I belive they were intended as, meaning I belive that all these powers can be used equally and anyone uising the force risk DSP on murder and eveil acts, but if I do not comit an evil act, but use a åpower that has been house rule abused, found unballened or by design could be , but is not explitily DARK, then this should no have any other rule than any other non dark power.
So I use telekiesis to kill that enemy in self deefense, becuse of this I automatically gain a DPS since I killed through the force, btu not if I used my lightsaber and lightsaber combat.......and yes I know telekiesis does not state that you automatically get a DSP for use, but the consesus is that "outside the spesific lightsaber combat power" where killing in slef defense is accepted, ANY use of the force to kill is a DSP and this is what claim is just wrong and was never intended
And we can argue Luke did not act in direct self defense when uing the force to guide his missiles to blow up the death star...or? |
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