Starfighter Squadrons as Single Units

[Dr. Bidlo]

I understand the way the Combined Action bonus works and didn't explain it incorrectly in my example. Can you either address the flaws in my example, provide an example of your own of a combat round using your rules, or both? Your rules as presented are missing one or more critical details from what I see. Though I could be wrong, it appears unusable without more detail.

I really want to understand your intent but without a detailed example, I cannot make sense of it. I was hoping to have it figured out before my game tomorrow, which is why I have been pushing so hard on the topic, but I have a back-up squad rule to use and there will be more opportunities in future games.

EDIT: After additional rereads and thought, I believe I do understand your rules, I just don't agree with the primary bulk if the squad bonus coming from the scale. This is a very rare case where I don't agree with you, so I'm just going to leave it alone for a while and revisit it with a fresh perspective in several weeks.

[CRMcNeill]

I'm not sure if I have it formulated well enough in my head to be able to explain it in a way that will work at the gaming table. The main stumbling block at the moment is establishing exactly when and where the Unit Strength Modifier would or would not be applicable. Honestly, I don't think I can have this ready by tomorrow.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Dr. Bidlo]

No, I wouldn't expect that. There is no hurry, as I have a method to use for the time being and there will be PLENTY of other opportunities to use squads as single units in my future games due to the nature of the campaign I am running. Thanks for all the work you put in on these rules.

[Dr. Bidlo]

As a continuation of our discussion, I have been using the following system for squads - so far with ground troops and starfighters:

Squadrons automatically benefit from your modified combined action bonus (+1D every time the number of coordinating units doubles), but the bonus is automatically applied to damage rolls only, not the 'to hit' roll.

A character may use the command skill to provide an additional +1D to the Combined Action bonus and the squad mat split their dice between the roll to hit and the damage roll freely.

When a squad is hit:
0-3 results in a -1D penalty to the squad for the rest of the current round and the following round.
4-8 results in no more actions for the squad for the remainder of the turn and a -1D penalty to all future actions. When the squad receives a second 4-8 damage result, the squad may not take any more actions during the turn and loses one member, but the ongoing -1D penalty is removed.
9 - 10 results in the squad losing one member.
11+ results in the squad losing one member. Then reduce the damage difference by -10 and apply it to this table again. Continue this process as many times as necessary.

That's the method I have been using , though I just wanted to get the idea out and have not written it up formally. I like this method because it does not require an Excel spreadsheet full of formulas like my previous version based on Star Warriors and it is easy for me to implement and remember.

Thoughts?

[CRMcNeill]

[Dr. Bidlo]

I like where you are going with Tactics versus Command. I was trying to figure out how a commander could further benefit a squad so I artificially reduced the effect of the squad's automatic combined action bonus. However, if it is assumed squads are already combat trained and drilled as a team, it should work with no restrictions. Then, the commander takes the Tactics checks to benefit the entire army/force.

As for the modification to the Combined Action bonus, it changes as the squad size changes. No extra rule needed. When the squad drops from 8 to 7 members, the bonus drops from +3D to +2D.

[CRMcNeill]

The problem with the math there is that, if you’re adhering to the x2=+1D method, an 8-man squad would have to lose 4 men (1/2=-1D) to drop from +3D to +2D. Going with -1 per casualty allows for a more proportional loss of strength per individual casualty.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Dr. Bidlo]

[CRMcNeill]

Technically, per the detailed version of the X2=+1D method, dropping from 8 to 7 would result in a drop from +3D to +2D+2.

Going by the same rules, a full-strength Starfighter squadron should have a Strength modifier of +3D+1. I went with +3D because I was envisioning it as a combination of both strength in numbers and psychological cohesion (hence the +1D bonus for being experienced fighter pilots.). I would be open to adjusting the Starfighter Squadron table as needed.

But from a math standpoint, losing one man out of eight really doesn't add up to a halving of the total effectiveness of the unit. Doing it by the pip represents the loss much better.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Dr. Bidlo]

[CRMcNeill]

I'm the one who codified the x2=+1D system being used here, so no, I'm reasonably certain I'm right. Look at the detailed version of the system to see what I'm talking about.

Consider also that there is noticeable difference in firepower if you have seven troopers shooting blaster rifles instead of just four, but immediately dropping from 3D to 2D doesn't adequately represent that in the same way that a pip method would.

Also bear in mind that, up to about +3D, the x2=+1D system roughly parallels the 2R&E RAW for combined actions, where you get +1 pip for every additional person combining (8 troopers combining with their sergeant would result in a bonus of +8, which converts to +2D+2), and that tracking by -1 pip per casualty is easier to convert on the fly when in the middle of tabletop combat.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Dr. Bidlo]

My apologies, I see that I misread your response as I reread it. Additionally, I was assuming the full dice bonuses, not the exoanded or gradient of version with the pips, so as I was seeing it using the 'standard' 2× method, you would drop from +3D to +2D when losing 1 member of an 8 member squad. Yes, using the expanded version, it drops to a bonus of 2D+2 when you go to 7 members.

Which version do you consider the standard of the 2x combined action bonus: full dice or gradations?

You do bring up a good question as to which version of the combined actions bonus to use: the modified 2nd edition rules (2x) or the 2nd Edition R&R giving a pip per person?

I personally don't use the R&R because of the Command cap rule which prevents it from breaking but is too restrictive for my tastes. You could really use either, but I prefer consistently applying the 2x method. That is just me though.

However, it is very easy to customize the combined action based on personal preference.

The other benefit is I don't have to impose a limit size to squads. Players will typically optimize the effectiveness of their squads by size.

Aside from the the coordination bonus specifics, how do you think the squad rules play out? Can you see any fatal flaws? I like the damage carrying over at incapacitated, but using 10 as the cut off makes the math easy when using during the game.

[Dr. Bidlo]

Off topic, but I didn't see your conversions for the TIE/rc or fc. Do you have them and I just missed them? I am using them in my games and am curious about their lasers as well as an special rules.

[Whill]

[Dr. Bidlo]

Thanks! I saw those, but was scanning for rc and fc, so missed it.