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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:05 pm Post subject: Willpower & The Force |
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I have previously mentioned my Willpower rule for Force Users, but have never actually codified it. So, seeing as how much I reference it, I figured I'd take the time to write it up.The Willpower Rule
On certain Dark Side powers that would normally incur a Dark Side Point, a Force user has the option to use the power to inflict Stun Damage instead of normal damage, and thus not receive the DSP. This requires the character to roll their Willpower skill against the listed Difficulty of the power they intend to use. On a Success, the power inflicts Stun Damage; on a Failure, the power inflicts Normal Damage as described, and the character receives a DSP.
List of Applicable Powers (Willpower Difficulty)Injure/Kill (Difficult)
Telekinesis (Moderate)
Force Lightning (Very Difficult)
Telekinetic Kill (Difficult)
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Raven Redstar
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I'm going to mull this over for a bit and see if I can offer any ideas.
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Only thing I want to add for reference for anyone who comes and reads this is this:
| Star Wars 2nd Edition R&E, Page: 98 wrote: | Game Option: Severe Injuries. As an optional rule, a character who causes enough damage to kill another character has the option of causing a serious, permanent injury instead. (For example, a limb could be severed or a body part injured so badly that it could never be used again.)
This is not necessarily an evil action — some would say his is more merciful than killing someone (although that's up for debate). In addition to the severe injury, the target character is wounded, wounded twice or incapacitated
(gamemaster's option). |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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A couple problems I have with this rule...
1) Accidents do happen, and they are occasionally lethal. A pacifist accidentally killing someone, even when the circumstances are justifiable, can be a major point in a character's story arc, as they now have to deal with the sense of guilt and failure of having ended a life, even when they didn't intend to. Simply allowing them to declare a "take-back" is not realistic. It takes a lot of skill to be able to call a shot.
2) I'm not sure it applies to the Force powers in question, in that the Dark Side Point is (per the game structure) rooted more in the emotional fuel needed to perform the act than it is in the result of the act.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I get where you're coming from, but also keep in mind the pulp feel of the setting. Players should be able to choose whether or not they are killing a target because they're the protagonists and they are able to be heroic.
I can recall early on in my D6 career my minor Jedi went to cut through a sealed door to get into a freighter's bridge because someone he was chasing had run in and locked the door. The GM had decided that the person standing right on the other side of the door, so when my saber cut through, it killed him. I was given a dark side point on the spot.
If given the choice, I would have much rather just amputated a leg, hand, or arm.
I'm okay with the idea that some "dark" powers can be used to incapacitate rather than kill. I'm also okay with my players choosing when they want to deal lethal damage on a kill result or if they'd rather just maim or incapacitate the target. My only willpower roll would be against the power's difficulty itself to avoid getting the initial dark side point.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Frankly, that was unfair of your GM. Apart from Force powers where DSPs are prescribed for use, DSPs are pretty clearly linked to intent. Notice how, in the rulebook, the GM is expected to warn characters that their declared action will earn them a DSP and give them a chance to change their mind. Your character wasn't trying to kill anyone, just cut through the door. If the GM had been playing fair, he should've warned you.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | A couple problems I have with this rule...
1) Accidents do happen, and they are occasionally lethal. A pacifist accidentally killing someone, even when the circumstances are justifiable, can be a major point in a character's story arc, as they now have to deal with the sense of guilt and failure of having ended a life, even when they didn't intend to. Simply allowing them to declare a "take-back" is not realistic. It takes a lot of skill to be able to call a shot.
2) I'm not sure it applies to the Force powers in question, in that the Dark Side Point is (per the game structure) rooted more in the emotional fuel needed to perform the act than it is in the result of the act. |
I find these two factors very important.
I can see how some of the "good" jedi when readinf up stats we see some having a dark side point and that easily be them trying to use the force to subdue an enemy but accident happen and the enemy is wounded or killed, and the jedi has a dark side point, this makes a lot of sense.
If we add to this the rules of redemption found in several D6 scourses we can easliy use this to humanize maybe the jedi especially, allowing the grey or as I call the more "human" jedi, who is both good and flawed and thus much more realistic than the to some classical conservative black and white stereotype.
There are several chearacters statted out with darks side points above 2 even above 6 who are not force users.
I belive the RAW actually adresses this and states that DSPs can be awarded to non force users as well, espcieally player characters, but also npcs.
Have though of changing the "value" of DSPs, seeing that with this rule it is much easier to "avoid" them while pushing the line, an attitude I would maybe award a dsp, but I digress.
With changing the value I mean, make it harder to attain one, make the "RP Effect" of them less, or do you intend to keep DSP as they are and simply have a better way for all to use "more" aspects of the force with a fair chance to even emulate what is done by "good" jedi in books and movies that reflect the more ambigous uses of the force at times seen? |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10436
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | Only thing I want to add for reference for anyone who comes and reads this is this:
| Star Wars 2nd Edition R&E, Page: 98 wrote: | Game Option: Severe Injuries. As an optional rule, a character who causes enough damage to kill another character has the option of causing a serious, permanent injury instead. (For example, a limb could be severed or a body part injured so badly that it could never be used again.)
This is not necessarily an evil action — some would say his is more merciful than killing someone (although that's up for debate). In addition to the severe injury, the target character is wounded, wounded twice or incapacitated
(gamemaster's option). |
I can recall early on in my D6 career my minor Jedi went to cut through a sealed door to get into a freighter's bridge because someone he was chasing had run in and locked the door. The GM had decided that the person standing right on the other side of the door, so when my saber cut through, it killed him. I was given a dark side point on the spot. |
Your GM was a jerk (and I hope he is lurking here and reading this). Like CRM said, the Dark Side rules are based on intent and emotion. That was a complete accident on your character's part, so you weren't even choosing to attack the character in the first place. That was a total set-up – The GM put the character on the other side of the door just to blindside you with a Dark Side point for something you had no intention or knowledge you were doing. Talk about evil GM.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | I get where you're coming from, but also keep in mind the pulp feel of the setting. Players should be able to choose whether or not they are killing a target because they're the protagonists and they are able to be heroic.
...
If given the choice, I would have much rather just amputated a leg, hand, or arm.
I'm okay with the idea that some "dark" powers can be used to incapacitate rather than kill. I'm also okay with my players choosing when they want to deal lethal damage on a kill result or if they'd rather just maim or incapacitate the target. My only willpower roll would be against the power's difficulty itself to avoid getting the initial dark side point. |
THIS. I completely agree. I added a version of the Severe Injuries rule to my character Damage system. Star Wars isn't real life and the game's purpose is to create entertaining stories. It is important for players (especially younger players) to have the option to not kill characters despite the decrease in the realism from less accidental killings. In linear fiction stories, characters only die when the author decides they die. The game is only a compromise between pure linear fiction and real life simulation.
Removing this for all characters just for the sake of accidentally killing someone being a part of a single character's story arc is overkill. That can be a part of the character's background before play begins. If it must occur in-play for the sake of the group story being made, it can be something that can be arranged privately between the GM and that player, so it will be role-played out with all the drama for the single occasion that occurs, while everyone else still have the option not to kill (and after the 'dramatic arc event' including the player of the character who accidentally killed). Rules should be for everyone most of the time, and exceptions can still be made for dramatic purposes when they are appropriate to occur.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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We've had this debate elsewhere, but it's long been my contention that bad things happen as a result of a roll of the dice, and that roleplaying is about reacting to those things. That should include the results of accidentally killing someone. Now, since there are already ways for player characters to influence those results at a cost, such as spending FPs or CPs to modify the dice result, I would suggest tying the Severely Wounded downgrade to spending CPs to modify the result, say 1 CP per Wound Level.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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