| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
|
 Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:08 am Post subject: Imperial Military |
 |
|
Why and HOW was it possible for the Empire to control, let alone take planets when the Imperial Army is considered LESS trained and LESS elite than the stormtrooper corps.
The stormtooper corps where a full legion can spend three weeks shooting at a stationary target and not hit.
How could the Empire even wage war with soldiers not capable?
I dare sy the stomies can't hit is beyond stupid and has no basis in star wars....pd fan meme is not star wars.
So I dare say that the BEST soldiers in the galaxy are Impaials, and the Stormtrooper corps being the Elite of the Elite.
I mean why even have stormtrooperss if they are not in any way capable of hitting a target?
So should we as serous star wars fans, give the stormies what they deserver an exhalted Elite position, maing at least ONE tier ABOVE any other "regular"military force in the galaxy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
TauntaunScout
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
In WEG rules they are elite because they are fanatically loyal to the emperor. "They cannot be bribed, seduced, intimidated" etc. into betraying the emperor.
They also had good combat stats, it's just that -1D for wearing armor that makes them suck in RPG combat encounters. As I recall they typically had Blaster and Grenade skills of 4D, which represents very good training. But that armor makes it 3D.
If you want them to be better, use snowtrooper stats. They start with a DEX of 3D.
I might be slightly stats-wise, off as I know the miniatures battles stats better than I know the RPG stats. But generally the above should be correct within a pip or so.
Stormtroopers are also more well-rounded than the army and navy troopers, who's Attributes sometimes fall into the 1D range. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Why and how?
Because a world filled with people who do not have much in the way of weapons is easily subjugated by a military, even one that does not hit targets very well.
Stormtroopers have intimidation...with look, with the voice modulator, with their numbers, and that does a lot to a group of people who are common civilians.
We are looking at them from the perspective of stats only, not on what it would ACTUALLY be like to have someone in a suit of intimidating armor, coming at you with the intent to harm you are arrest you.
You are comparing stats only, and comparing it to augmented player characters....who are the furthest thing from the "common" person on a planet. Remember that player characters START out with 6 more attribute dice than any Stormtrooper. That gives a player character and edge from the very beginning. And player characters will optimize their skills, especially Blaster and Dodge. Those are two skills that are likely not known by most people in the Star Wars galaxy who live their life without venturing beyond their own town and who work at a desk job during the day and go home to their family each day.
A fisherman might be strong, but it is likely he will not know the Blaster skill at all. A Banker or Shopkeeper or local town beggar will probably never touch a firearm, or if they do, they will probably never use it. And "Dodge" is probably not a skill they will ever learn.
So a "common" man or woman with 2D will be quite intimidated by a typical Stormtrooper. A typical Stormtrooper has a Dexterity of 3D versus a typical working stiff of 2D. A Stormtrooper has a Blaster skill of 4D, and Blaster Rifle of 5D, versus a typical working stiff with a 2D to avoid the shot and perhaps known absolutely nothing about "Dodge".
And when that typical Stormtrooper hits the typical common man, the 5D Blaster Rifle or 4D Blaster Pistol is rolled against the 2D of the common man. When said man drops from the wound, along with four or five others (it is easy to mass of people who might be confronting a group of Stormtroopers), it will rather easily cause panic that allows the Stormtroopers to move forward and take advantage of the panic.
In a typical mob of upset common people, you will not have a player character. You will not have someone with the Blaster skill, or brawling skill, or the Dodge skill unless the GM deems it dramatically appropriate to have someone rise above the masses for some reason. You will have people with the Bureaucracy skill, or the Value skill, or the Clerical skill, or the Cooking skill, or the Stamina skill. And when they get hit by a Blaster shot, they are not resisting with 4D and do not have armor on. They are rolling 2D against a 4D Blaster pistol or a 5D Blaster rifle.
And when someone even more impressive shows up, like an AT-ST, the common people have nothing they can do against that, so they flee and panic! The common people don't know the AT-ST is "tippy" or has low stats compared to an AT-AT. They know it is quite a bit larger than them, looks menacing, has stomping feet bigger than a common man, and have very large guns on them that cause BIG explosions when they hit!
So can you begin to see how the Empire might be able to gain control of planets? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RyanDarkstar
Commander
Joined: 04 Dec 2014
Posts: 351
Location: Chambersburg, PA, USA, Earth
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Stormtroopers are also more well-rounded than the army and navy troopers, who's Attributes sometimes fall into the 1D range. |
I always wondered if the 1D and 1D+1 for Imperial NPCs was a typo. According to most of the other materials, humans have at least 2D for all attributes, but all of the low tier Imperial NPCs have below baseline stats which appears in all of the books.
I know WEG is notorious for its lack of cohesion throughout, but I wonder if humans were originally supposed to have 1D for attribute minimums.
_________________
Currently playing D&D 5E and painting an unholy amount of miniatures. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Grimace wrote: | Why and how?
Because a world filled with people who do not have much in the way of weapons is easily subjugated by a military, even one that does not hit targets very well.
Stormtroopers have intimidation...with look, with the voice modulator, with their numbers, and that does a lot to a group of people who are common civilians.
We are looking at them from the perspective of stats only, not on what it would ACTUALLY be like to have someone in a suit of intimidating armor, coming at you with the intent to harm you are arrest you.
You are comparing stats only, and comparing it to augmented player characters....who are the furthest thing from the "common" person on a planet. Remember that player characters START out with 6 more attribute dice than any Stormtrooper. That gives a player character and edge from the very beginning. And player characters will optimize their skills, especially Blaster and Dodge. Those are two skills that are likely not known by most people in the Star Wars galaxy who live their life without venturing beyond their own town and who work at a desk job during the day and go home to their family each day.
A fisherman might be strong, but it is likely he will not know the Blaster skill at all. A Banker or Shopkeeper or local town beggar will probably never touch a firearm, or if they do, they will probably never use it. And "Dodge" is probably not a skill they will ever learn.
So a "common" man or woman with 2D will be quite intimidated by a typical Stormtrooper. A typical Stormtrooper has a Dexterity of 3D versus a typical working stiff of 2D. A Stormtrooper has a Blaster skill of 4D, and Blaster Rifle of 5D, versus a typical working stiff with a 2D to avoid the shot and perhaps known absolutely nothing about "Dodge".
And when that typical Stormtrooper hits the typical common man, the 5D Blaster Rifle or 4D Blaster Pistol is rolled against the 2D of the common man. When said man drops from the wound, along with four or five others (it is easy to mass of people who might be confronting a group of Stormtroopers), it will rather easily cause panic that allows the Stormtroopers to move forward and take advantage of the panic.
In a typical mob of upset common people, you will not have a player character. You will not have someone with the Blaster skill, or brawling skill, or the Dodge skill unless the GM deems it dramatically appropriate to have someone rise above the masses for some reason. You will have people with the Bureaucracy skill, or the Value skill, or the Clerical skill, or the Cooking skill, or the Stamina skill. And when they get hit by a Blaster shot, they are not resisting with 4D and do not have armor on. They are rolling 2D against a 4D Blaster pistol or a 5D Blaster rifle.
And when someone even more impressive shows up, like an AT-ST, the common people have nothing they can do against that, so they flee and panic! The common people don't know the AT-ST is "tippy" or has low stats compared to an AT-AT. They know it is quite a bit larger than them, looks menacing, has stomping feet bigger than a common man, and have very large guns on them that cause BIG explosions when they hit!
So can you begin to see how the Empire might be able to gain control of planets? |
the problem here is that the worlds attacked by the non hitting imperials, have militaries that somehow can hit.
Now I would argue ONE soldier that can hit will be able to hold off any size army or force that can never hit ever, as the established view on stormiel marksmanship is concerned.
Now add about 10-12 people on a planet that actually have some basic picking up a blaster and knows what end to point training these 10-12 will be able to twart any and all invasion since the enemy is not capable of hitting
NOTHING can make a trooper that is 100% incapable of hitting, a threateven in his number is in the millions, all you have then is a million misses |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TauntaunScout wrote: | In WEG rules they are elite because they are fanatically loyal to the emperor. "They cannot be bribed, seduced, intimidated" etc. into betraying the emperor.
They also had good combat stats, it's just that -1D for wearing armor that makes them suck in RPG combat encounters. As I recall they typically had Blaster and Grenade skills of 4D, which represents very good training. But that armor makes it 3D.
If you want them to be better, use snowtrooper stats. They start with a DEX of 3D.
I might be slightly stats-wise, off as I know the miniatures battles stats better than I know the RPG stats. But generally the above should be correct within a pip or so.
Stormtroopers are also more well-rounded than the army and navy troopers, who's Attributes sometimes fall into the 1D range. |
4D is a "satndard" professional level. A taxi driver with 4D in taxi driving can make it a living, a baker with 4D backing can make it a living, but 4D is NOT in any way anything antyhing "specialy good" it is the normal professional level.................nothing elite with 4D at all, and even less so with the meningless -1D armnor, in fact I have little to no dex penalty for armor becuse it is not logical.......the few armors that do warrant it, gets a few pip |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mamatried wrote: |
NOTHING can make a trooper that is 100% incapable of hitting, a threateven in his number is in the millions, all you have then is a million misses |
You keep saying they are 100% incapable of hitting. Where do you get that?
Again, are you comparing to a player character?
I don't know about your games, but in my games the Stormtroopers have definitely hit their targets. They don't miss 100% of the time.
You just got done showing an example of 4D being "professional level". Stormtroopers have 4D in Blaster, and 5D in Blaster Rifle. That's professional level. Are you saying someone who is professional cannot do their job? Can a professional soldier not hit a target?
If so, how can a professional taxi driver manage to make a living since they would, by your expression of Stormtroopers, be 100% incapable of operating a taxi cab and therefore would crash? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Grimace wrote: | | Mamatried wrote: |
NOTHING can make a trooper that is 100% incapable of hitting, a threateven in his number is in the millions, all you have then is a million misses |
You keep saying they are 100% incapable of hitting. Where do you get that?
Again, are you comparing to a player character?
I don't know about your games, but in my games the Stormtroopers have definitely hit their targets. They don't miss 100% of the time.
You just got done showing an example of 4D being "professional level". Stormtroopers have 4D in Blaster, and 5D in Blaster Rifle. That's professional level. Are you saying someone who is professional cannot do their job? Can a professional soldier not hit a target?
If so, how can a professional taxi driver manage to make a living since they would, by your expression of Stormtroopers, be 100% incapable of operating a taxi cab and therefore would crash? |
I am comparing them to the established "meme" that they are 100% incapable of hitting, even in the mandalorian we see two scout troopers, that by CANON and LEGENDS scourses are described as elite, as marksmen, as snipers, even rated a cut above the average stormtrooper, yet at less than 10 feet they were not able to hit a stationary target.
becuse of that I dare say NO SYSTEM would be under imperial control through force as there could not ever be a hit landed.
The ONLY hit we see the imperial military being capable of is capital ships shooting other capital ships and the death star shooting alderaan, other than that according to the established meme, they are not able to hit anything whatsoever.
So with that in nind, HOW can the Empire even be a threat....and we have to remember the stormtroopers are accorsding to scourses vastly superior to the general army, making them even less capable than the stomtroopers and they are according to the established 100% incabable of hitting a target stationary or otherwise.
Now in reality, with the way the stormtrooper corps is described, they would be IMOvery close in cababilities with the US Rangers, or Elite Units, ALL of these have at least a marksmanship qualifying that is considered superior to the untrained .
And when you take a standard NPC, give them 4D to skills on a flat 2D attribute then we still see the best trained soldiers in the galaxy fall miles short, even full lightyears short of anything other than below a mere average.
I dare say a stomtrooper though his training is a minimum 5-6D to blaster, 0D armor penalty, and a minimum of 4D in brwling parry, blaster artillery, dodge grenades. and for scouts ADDING on top of this melee training and vehicle blasters, all above 4D.
you should IMO be a 4D having finished any worth while bootcamp.
5D and UP is in the realms of suoerior and elite imo.
So to me a stromtrooper is a formidable opponent alone, and even worse in a unit with their combined fire.
I think the main problem is the movies, where they do not hit anything and the meme stuck, and got adopted into the game.
to me a standard Imperial trooper is slightly shy of the level of a PC, but much stonger than most non combat NPCS, a generic stomtrooper IMO is at least at parwith any PC, maybe better even in some aspects, and the specialized units even more.
A team of stomcommados should IMO be equal to a well experienced 50+CP spent PC team of equal numbers.
if a baker can shoot as good as a trained elite soldier then the trained elite soilder is not very elite at all.
I am working on a total revamp of the stomoes, power levels higher than the "meme" norm, but more realistic as to how the boocs and comics describe them, more so than the movies.
PCs do not have plot armor, so there should not be any reason a stomterooper should not be as scary and above all else as dangerous and expertly trained even compared to a PC, sice they will mechanically actually have a hit chance |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Actually, PCs do have a form of plot armor in the form of higher reaction skill levels. Even a base-level PC with a Dodge of 4D will be harder to hit than a minor NPC with a Dodge of 2D. Relative skill level accounts for a lot of discrepancies discussed here.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TauntaunScout
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RyanDarkstar wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | Stormtroopers are also more well-rounded than the army and navy troopers, who's Attributes sometimes fall into the 1D range. |
I always wondered if the 1D and 1D+1 for Imperial NPCs was a typo. According to most of the other materials, humans have at least 2D for all attributes, but all of the low tier Imperial NPCs have below baseline stats which appears in all of the books.
I know WEG is notorious for its lack of cohesion throughout, but I wonder if humans were originally supposed to have 1D for attribute minimums. |
2D is the average, not the minimum. For an average person, for everything higher than 2D, something else will be lower. Very few people are actually dead average at everything. But if you needed, as a GM, to know the random skill of a random person, 2D was the most statistically likely. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TauntaunScout
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think the main problem is the movies, where they do not hit anything and the meme stuck, and got adopted into the game....
...
if a baker can shoot as good as a trained elite soldier then the trained elite soilder is not very elite at all.
[/quote]
In the movies they shoot rebel troops, ewoks, Princess Leia, and R2-D2. Off the top of my head.
A baker can't shoot as well as a stormtrooper. A professional baker can bake as well as a stormtrooper can shoot. And there is more to measure a soldier than shooting skill.
4D should be sufficient to be really good under ideal conditions. Throw in field conditions and the movies don't seem so crazy. Most shots fired in anger are suppressive and not intended to hit anything unless by luck. I think I read that in the civil war, someone compared the records and figured out that something like 90 lbs of ammunition was fired per casualty. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think the defenders aboard the Tantive would debate you on Stormtroopers not being able to hit anything...at least from the few that survived and were taken prisoner. I would also think the Rebel soldiers on Hoth would debate you on the ability of the stormtroopers to hit things.
Heck, you mention the Mandalorian. Did you forget that shortly before those Biker Scouts were missing that target on the ground, they shot Kuiil dead from their speeder bikes? Or that Stormtroopers and Death Troopers just took out a mess of other Imperial troops back in the tavern? Or that they later found out the Imperial Stormtroopers took out the Mandalorian forces in their culvern?
You are referring to a meme. A meme is a joke to poke fun. It is not definitive proof of stormtrooper ineptitude. Sure the HEROES managed to not get hit (except Leia and C-3PO), but again, that is like comparing player characters to common folk...even common stormtroopers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14215
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TauntaunScout wrote: |
They also had good combat stats, it's just that -1D for wearing armor that makes them suck in RPG combat encounters. As I recall they typically had Blaster and Grenade skills of 4D, which represents very good training. But that armor makes it 3D.
|
That is why to ME, the BOOK listed stats for storm troopers, ALREADY includes their -1d penalty for the armor.. THEY wear it all the time, so are not bothered by it...
EITHER That, or you can say they've BOUGHT that penalty off..
| Grimace wrote: | Why and how?
Because a world filled with people who do not have much in the way of weapons is easily subjugated by a military, even one that does not hit targets very well.
Stormtroopers have intimidation...with look, with the voice modulator, with their numbers, and that does a lot to a group of people who are common civilians.
We are looking at them from the perspective of stats only, not on what it would ACTUALLY be like to have someone in a suit of intimidating armor, coming at you with the intent to harm you are arrest you.
You are comparing stats only, and comparing it to augmented player characters....who are the furthest thing from the "common" person on a planet. Remember that player characters START out with 6 more attribute dice than any Stormtrooper. That gives a player character and edge from the very beginning. And player characters will optimize their skills, especially Blaster and Dodge. Those are two skills that are likely not known by most people in the Star Wars galaxy who live their life without venturing beyond their own town and who work at a desk job during the day and go home to their family each day.
A fisherman might be strong, but it is likely he will not know the Blaster skill at all. A Banker or Shopkeeper or local town beggar will probably never touch a firearm, or if they do, they will probably never use it. And "Dodge" is probably not a skill they will ever learn. |
Not just that, but troopers often come with MORE than just themselves.. They bring AT-ATs, AT-STs, juggernaughts, CAVs and other vehicles, PLUS they have star destroyers in orbit that can blow up entire Cities in one broad-side of their turbolasers...
| RyanDarkstar wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | Stormtroopers are also more well-rounded than the army and navy troopers, who's Attributes sometimes fall into the 1D range. |
I always wondered if the 1D and 1D+1 for Imperial NPCs was a typo. According to most of the other materials, humans have at least 2D for all attributes, but all of the low tier Imperial NPCs have below baseline stats which appears in all of the books.
I know WEG is notorious for its lack of cohesion throughout, but I wonder if humans were originally supposed to have 1D for attribute minimums. |
Agreed. IMO NO human, npc or otherwise, should have any skill or attribute below 2d..
| Mamatried wrote: | | the problem here is that the worlds attacked by the non hitting imperials, have militaries that somehow can hit. |
That's why when they try to take over a place, first off being struck, from orbit, ARE any military facilities a planet has.. If their military gets decimated first, then any troops landing, won't have as much resistance..
| Mamatried wrote: | Now I would argue ONE soldier that can hit will be able to hold off any size army or force that can never hit ever, as the established view on stormiel marksmanship is concerned.
Now add about 10-12 people on a planet that actually have some basic picking up a blaster and knows what end to point training these 10-12 will be able to twart any and all invasion since the enemy is not capable of hitting.
|
If i am being shot at by 10 guys, even having 8d in dodge, means i will Eventually be hit.
| Quote: | | "Grimace"] I don't know about your games, but in my games the Stormtroopers have definitely hit their targets. They don't miss 100% of the time. |
So true. Even using BASE troopers, the # of times, i've had PCs on tables i DM for, go down from being HIT is close to 30-40% of the time..
A LOT more than not being hit what so ever..
| Mamatried wrote: | | I am comparing them to the established "meme" that they are 100% incapable of hitting, even in the mandalorian we see two scout troopers, that by CANON and LEGENDS scourses are described as elite, as marksmen, as snipers, even rated a cut above the average stormtrooper, yet at less than 10 feet they were not able to hit a stationary target. |
That is cause the writers of the films/tv shows, HAVE to show the imperials being incompetent..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TauntaunScout
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 981
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm just annoyed that the elite shock troops are used for literally everything. If they're elite, shouldn't they make up more like 10% or so of the forces? One thing I've noticed about Star Wars is, they LOVE to use the word "elite". It's pretty much the goto adjective. Kinda like how their favorite rank is "general".
I think it's 1984ish of Disney to Legendize the old imperial army infantry over a few minutes of SOLO screentime showing a uniform variant. Worse, is that they say the army infantry was gradually replaced by stormtroopers. If stormtroopers are the most common, they aren't elite anymore, by definition.
There's also more than one way to be elite. Back in the 18th century, the elite part of army was usually the grenadier companies (and later, the light infantry companies) of each regiment. Grenadiers weren't chosen for their marksmanship. 3D in musketry would have been more than sufficient for a private of the grenadier company. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
