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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
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 Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | What page are those 1E scaling rules on? I want to take a peek at them. |
The scaling rules in 1E are all over the place. They're not on one page. They're buried in the text. For the AT-AT, see page 66 of the Star Wars Sourcebook, 1st edition. Fourth paragraph.
In the core rulebook, there's some scaling rules on page 65, under the title Rules: Ships and Personal Combat.
Obviously, someone at WEG had the idea to consolidate rules like this and present a concise and clear scaling rule in the Rules Companion. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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Joined: 07 Apr 2017
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: |
I don't need to convince you. |
Well, you sort of do need to convince somebody if you want to influence their decision as to which edition to play, and why. The same holds true for the rest of us.  |
No, not really. The OP asked for suggestions. I gave him mine.
Look in the 1st edition section of the form and read the post I made about being in love with 1st edition. That pretty much says it all, if you want some convincing.
| Quote: | | Although, since there is a D6 version of Indiana Jones, I'd think it would be better for some who wants to run an Indian Jones campaign to use that version of D6, at least at first, rather than converting Star Wars. Especially since doing so would help with the game stats for setting specific weapons, equipment and vehicles. That is assuming, he has or can get those rules. |
I agree. That's what I'd use. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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Joined: 07 Apr 2017
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | But getting back to combined actions, did you use combined actions when you ran 1E? What about when you ran 2E? |
I answered this above, but just for clarification, Combined Actions entered the 1E game quite quickly with the 4-page Rules Upgrade. |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Quote: | | You don't agree that if I shoot you, and you then can do nothing in the round--that you're prevented from shooting back or even moving--that that is more deadly than if I shoot you and you can still act in the round with a penalty? |
Neither is deadly. Deadly is, well, deadly. Which 1E stun definitely is not. The consequences of a stun in 1E are greater. But they in no way rise to the level of a wound much less deadliness. |
Semantics. |
Yes it is semantics. Semantics matter. When the question is which system is more deadly, the meaning of the word “deadly” matters.
Perhaps using someone else’s words will clarify the matter. I’ll let Telsij explain why 1E is not particularly deadly. (He uses the word “lethality” instead of “deadly” but I’m hopeful that the similarity meaning of the two words is understood without recourse to dictionaries or thesauri.)
| Quote: | | We're just going round-n-round. |
That's often what happens when the parties can't agree on the meaning of a key term. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Quote: | | We're just going round-n-round. |
That's often what happens when the parties can't agree on the meaning of a key term. |
No, we disagree not just on semantics but the net effect of 1E combat.
If a character gets stunned in 1E, has no other actions--is preventing from acting--drops prone. THAT'S DEADLY. That's a much deadlier situation than how stuns are handled in 2E (in addition to 2E's Character Points).
You don't agree with that.
I know that you are wrong.
We're just going round-n-round on this. There's not a lot more to talk about.
As for Mortally Wounded in 1E, the character is knocked prone, unconscious, and he rolls 2D, every round. If he rolls less than the number of rounds that he's been Mortally Wounded, then he's dies.
That's pretty much dead.
And, as I have said before, I'm not arguing that 1E is better than 2E. I do like--even love--both systems. I love all versions of D6 Star Wars. They're all great. |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | No, we disagree not just on semantics but the net effect of 1E combat. |
I understand the effect of 1E combat. I also understand the effect of 1E stun vs. 2E stun
| Quote: | If a character gets stunned in 1E, has no other actions--is preventing from acting--drops prone. THAT'S DEADLY. That's a much deadlier situation than how stuns are handled in 2E (in addition to 2E's Character Points).
You don't agree with that. |
I don’t agree because it is manifestly false. Neither stun is deadly. What happens after someone gets stunned in 1E might be deadly. It might not. The 1E character (unlike the 2E character) is unable to take further actions. So technically they are helpless, and the villains could keep pumping shot after shot into the PC until they finally get a result of mortally wounded. But it seems likely that in many situations the villains will be shooting at the characters who are still up, not targeting the stunned and prone character to try to mortally wound him. So practically speaking the stunned character in 1E isn’t in danger of taking any further damage until after the combat is over. (Of course there are exceptions, like stunning a character who is climbing a rope over a lava pit, but those are uncommon.)
But we aren’t just talking only about the effect of stun. We are talking about the deadliness of the two systems which obviously includes looking at how the two systems deal with damage beyond stun. And the damage in 1E beyond stun is tends to be less damaging and deadly than the effects in 2E, often overwhelmingly so. I provided a table comparing the two systems. To see which system is the more deadly it’s worth actually looking at the numbers rather that only focusing on the respective effect of stun in the two systems.
Regarding character points in 2E, CPs may and often do mitigate damage...while they last. Just like Force Points mitigate damage in both systems...while they last. But you can't kill a character in 1E with one shot, all you can do is mortally would them. In 2E damage that would only stun or wound a character in 1E will often outright kill a 2E character…possibly even if they spend some CPs. There just aren't enough character points around for ordinary characters to routinely mitigate that level of damage throughout an entire adventure.
| Quote: | | As for Mortally Wounded in 1E, the character is knocked prone, unconscious, and he rolls 2D, every round. If he rolls less than the number of rounds that he's been Mortally Wounded, then he's dies. |
That assumes each of his friends do NOTHING each round until the character fails his roll.
| Quote: | | That's pretty much dead. |
Only if his friends can’t or won’t do anything to save him. But the amount of damage required to bring a 1E character to mortally wounded will kill a 2E character. There is virtually nothing the 2E character’s friends can do to save him at that point.
EXAMPLE: Let’s look at an example, a character rolls 12 on their damage resistance roll (DR). That’s not an unusually high roll for a PC with say a STR=3D. To mortally wound that character in 1E the attacker must do at least 36 points of damage over the 12 DR, that’s 48 damage. That’s a lot of damage.
Now let’s look at the same character in 2E with the same DR=12. They are hit for 48 points of damage. That is 36 points over their strength which is enough to kill them twice over. But let’s suppose they have CPs. They can spend, at most, 5 CPs to increase their damage resistance. A typical roll on 5D6 is 18 points. That decreases the damage to 30 points of damage. Which is 18 points over their strength roll. Guess what, they are still dead. And that’s assuming they have 5 CPs available to spend. Now that is deadly.
| Quote: | | And, as I have said before, I'm not arguing that 1E is better than 2E. I do like--even love--both systems. I love all versions of D6 Star Wars. They're all great. |
You keep trotting out this statement. The question isn’t which is better. The question is which is deadlier. And 1E just is not. 1E is like Ghostbusters, from which it derived. Characters aren’t supposed to die in Ghostbusters. So the rules don’t provide a way to immediately kill a character no matter how much damage they take. So too in 1E the rules assume the PCs aren't supposed to die and the rules reflect that. When Luke Venkman is mortally wounded, Egon Solo or one of the other team members can use a medpac to stabilize the badly wounded Venkman long enough to get him better medical treatment and save his life. Depending on the rolls and the availability of CPs, the 2E Venkman may be dead in one shot and nothing Egon does will help him. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Like I said, we've got no where to take this. I know that what you say is not correct in that it hasn't lined up with my experiences playing both 1E and 2E games.
You're not about to be swayed, though I don't think that you've actually played 1E.
And, that's fine.
There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| To you, definitions don't matter; examples are ignored and don't matter; rules mechanics don't matter; and neither of us has played in the other's games. We have no common point of reference at all. You are correct that there is nowhere to go from there. Have a nice day anyway. |
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Then I think that we've found something to agree on. There is nowhere to go from here, and we can let the matter rest.
No one is breaking any forum guidelines, so I don't think there's a need to close the thread, but if both of you agree that there is nowhere to go, let's just leave room for another user to come in and make commentary on which system they find would work well for Indiana Jones Adventures.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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