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Let's talk Star Destroyers!

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kalamaro
Cadet
Cadet

Joined: 24 Feb 2017
Posts: 24

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject:

For me the only change is the stats of the crew May be, the engraving give a intimidation check if is recognized but nothing more

Falconer
Commander

Joined: 08 Dec 2014
Posts: 315

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:00 pm Post subject:

The Chimaera is an Imperial II-class Star Destroyer. I wonder if the original poster was postulating the existence of an actual chimaera creature (lion-goat-dragon) after which the ship is named, and wondering what its stats might be.

Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:10 pm Post subject:

Rezikai wrote:

so anyone notice the huge Chimera image painted/decaled on Thrawn's Star Destroyer?

Also anyone got stats on the Chimera?

Falconer wrote:

The Chimaera is an Imperial II-class Star Destroyer.

I wonder if the original poster was postulating the existence of an actual chimaera creature (lion-goat-dragon) after which the ship is named, and wondering what its stats might be.

Rezikai asked for stats on "the Chimera" and referred to Thrawn's star destroyer in his previous sentence, so I'm pretty sure he is not asking about a possible mythological creature.

And in Canon, the Chimaera is an Imp I, not an Imp II. This is consistent with Rogue One and A New Hope which did not have Imp IIs.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering

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Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:47 am Post subject:

Making the Chimaera an ISD I is a retcon, as HttH identifies it as a II. And it's difficult to picture the conformist, uniform-minded Empire allowing the modification of a Star Destroyer for solely stylistic purposes. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996. The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

Falconer
Commander

Joined: 08 Dec 2014
Posts: 315

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject:

Whill wrote:

And in Canon, the Chimaera is an Imp I, not an Imp II.

Okay, but I suppose not everyone accepts the Canon-Legends construct carte blanche, nor that those who do accept it all fall squarely on the one side and not the other. In this case, IMO, there’s no way a nod in a handful of Disney cartoons trumps a grand tradition of WEG sourcebooks and Zahn novels. Novels in which the Chimaera obviously originated and which the cartoons are obviously referencing in an attempt to engineer something like a “fangasm moment.” It’s clear to me which is the real Chimaera. Heck, the WEG line is where the Imperial I and Imperial II designations originated, too. Who even knows if the cartoonists even know or care about that?

But perhaps we could come up with some sort of rule or convention so we don’t have to get into the weeds of this whole new canon issue every time it comes up, which will be more and more as discrepancies are continually created. My preference would be to assume we’re talking about Legends by default (this IS a WEG fan site), and that if anyone could tag a thread or a post or a portion of a post [Disney] if they wanted to stick only to the new canon, though that would not be necessary if the thread or post or portion of the post were explicitly referring to a Disney property (Rebels, TFA, R1…). Again, just my preference.

Giant Tourtiere
Ensign
Ensign

Joined: 26 Feb 2017
Posts: 38
Location: Ottawa, ON

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:30 pm Post subject:

I haven't seen Season 3 of Rebels yet but I still feel comfortable saying that the idea of the Empire allowing individual commanders to stylize their ships is something I will be entirely ignoring (much like those A-Wings). It doesn't make the least bit of sense with what we've been given of Imperial philosophy to this point. _________________ ---- Clever stratagems are quite beyond my powers, but if it is rank foolishness you require, I have no end of it.

Sutehp
Commodore

Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 1797
Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:21 pm Post subject:

Giant Tourtiere wrote:

I haven't seen Season 3 of Rebels yet but I still feel comfortable saying that the idea of the Empire allowing individual commanders to stylize their ships is something I will be entirely ignoring (much like those A-Wings). It doesn't make the least bit of sense with what we've been given of Imperial philosophy to this point.

I think that's true up to a point. But we've only seen one example of "allowing individual stylizing" and that example is Thrawn. This is a guy that even Grand Moff Tarkin addresses with respect, rather than a subordinate. If the Empire would make an exception for deviating from uniformity for anyone, it's him.

And the artwork on the underside of Thrawn's flagship makes sense in a way. This is a guy who is one of the very few people who has the Emperor's ear (the others being Tarkin, Vader, Grand Vizier Mas Amedda and the small handful of advisors like Ars Dangor). I can very much see the Emperor granting a special favor to such an art-lover like Thrawn to put artwork on the keel of his own flagship, especially as a reward for his devoted service. The dude's a Grand Admiral. Rank doth have its privileges, after all.
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RedKnight
Lieutenant Commander

Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 103

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:31 pm Post subject:

here is my major question: why are the crews so....insanely massive ? like on the SSD.....it (if we discount troops) has a crew that is only 46 thousand people shy of the present active duty US navy (estimated any way). That.....is pretty freaking insane numbers, are you telling me there 280ish thousand of the best of the imperial navy's best on ONE SSD ?

Sutehp
Commodore

Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 1797
Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:43 pm Post subject:

RedKnight wrote:

here is my major question: why are the crews so....insanely massive ? like on the SSD.....it (if we discount troops) has a crew that is only 46 thousand people shy of the present active duty US navy (estimated any way). That.....is pretty freaking insane numbers, are you telling me there 280ish thousand of the best of the imperial navy's best on ONE SSD ?

We're talking about a galaxy-wide navy with something on the order of 1 million inhabited member planets. The galaxy's population could reasonably number anywhere in the quadrillions or even quintillions. Coruscant alone has a population of a trillion people at its height and that's just one planet. Does a flying city-ship like an SSD with a crew of 280,000 really sound so unreasonable?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering

Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:07 pm Post subject:

Sutehp wrote:

Giant Tourtiere wrote:

Yet Thrawn is not the type to do something like this unless it provides a tactical advantage, when there really isn't one in doing this. He's not the prideful sort, and this is really nothing but showing off unnecessarily. In short, it's a boneheaded move by a design team that doesn't have to concern itself with the Legends universe.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:22 am Post subject:

Rezikai wrote:

so anyone notice the huge Chimera image painted/decaled on Thrawn's Star Destroyer?

Also anyone got stats on the Chimera?

Falconer wrote:

The Chimaera is an Imperial II-class Star Destroyer.

Whill wrote:

...in Canon, the Chimaera is an Imp I, not an Imp II.

Falconer wrote:

Whoa, Back up. Rezikai asks for stats for the Chimera. You answered matter-of-factly that it was an Imp II SD. His previous sentence in the same post referred to the emblem on the ship. I've seen Rebels so I knew from context he was talking about the canon/non-EU TV show called Rebels, not a Thrawn Trilogy novel. But it seemed clear you didn't know that in your reply, so I matter-of-factly provided the information for clarification.

I am opposed to the fascist idea of requiring users of this site to label that they are talking about canon or legends with either one being default. If it is clear from context, then let the context qualify it. If this wasn't clear from context to you, then you could have asked which Chimera he was talking about. And here's some friendly advice for considering context going forward - His previous sentence referred to noticing a painted/decaled image on the ship. I feel it's quite obvious he's referring to a visual medium so he's not talking about a Thrawn Trilogy novel.

And this has nothing to do with one universe trumping the other one. They are two separate universes with some overlap. Both universes are expanded from a set of films. Both universes have made similar mistakes of non-film continuity contradicting film canon and other non-film continuity taking place in the same universe. Yes WEG is a part of the EU, but WEG ceased publication in 1998 and the Star Wars franchises have continued to expand since then. With the exception of FFG RPG material, the EU is not really expanding anymore, so for these reasons it is only natural that gamers still playing WEG Star Wars are often going to have more than just continuity from the EU in their personal SW universes. And many things in WEG have been canonized into the newer universe, so WEG still serves as a basis for both. My Star Wars universe has elements from both the EU and the canon universe, but it also deviates from both in some ways.

His question was a side comment that had nothing to do with stats, so he wasn't a part of some conspiracy to screw up your work on WEG stats with impure cartoon canon continuity or some such. Geesh!

CRMcNeill wrote:

Making the Chimaera an ISD I is a retcon, as HttH identifies it as a II.

I can see why you would say that, but I don't consider the canon universe "retconning" the EU per se. The initial basis for the canon universe was the films and the TCW TV series with some related media. For starters, everything else from the EU was not included in the canon universe, with some Legends continuity being recanonized over time. The EU and canon universes are two separate universes and they are allowed to be different. I would say which model of Imperial star destroyer the Chimaera is just a difference between the two universes. I wouldn't say it's a retcon because the Chimaera remains an Imp II in the EU. I think another difference between the two universes is that Thrawn was promoted to Grand Admiral earlier in canon than in the EU.

CRMcNeill wrote:

The only possible tactical advantage I can think of is intimidation. 'This isn't just any star destroyer. This is Thrawn!' But it probably is just Real World fan service. The fans sure did whine and complain quite a lot when the Thrawn was decanonized, so perhaps they are now overcompensating.

CRMcNeill wrote:

And it's difficult to picture the conformist, uniform-minded Empire allowing the modification of a Star Destroyer for solely stylistic purposes. Rolling Eyes

I don't disagree. In my SWU no star destroyers have any personalized emblems on them because none of the film star destroyers have that and it is my preference to maintain consistency with the films in this matter. Unfortunately Rebels has silly stuff in it every episode because it's just a kiddie cartoon.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral

Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:06 pm Post subject:

Whill wrote:

CRMcNeill wrote:

And it's difficult to picture the conformist, uniform-minded Empire allowing the modification of a Star Destroyer for solely stylistic purposes. Rolling Eyes

Somewhat aside, I just got a mental image of a rogue captain* painting the name of his ship on the hull... or worse.

*What IS the rank to formally command a Star Destroyer?
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Falconer
Commander

Joined: 08 Dec 2014
Posts: 315

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject:

Whill wrote:

I am opposed to the fascist idea of requiring users of this site to label that they are talking about canon or legends with either one being default.

Come, come. Let’s not seriously compare board posting conventions to Hitler and Mussolini. The goal of such conventions would be to prevent just this sort of confusion and heated debate breaking out any time we encounter a discrepancy. Anyway, as I said, I was just stating my personal preference with regard to default.

Whill wrote:

Whill, I admit I may have misinterpreted your post. To me it read less like a clarification and more like a refutation or correction. It seemed like a rebuke, which I feel is incongruous with the nature of the discussion, and unnecessary. You should be aware that your pronouncement of your answer as “Canon” carries the connotation of denigrating the sources that disagree with it. That’s why, as I said, to many fans, “Canon vs. Legends” is a false dichotomy, a construct that as fans they are not required to accept just because that’s what Disney promotes. (Just as many people don’t accept the Special Editions, the Prequels, TCW, etc.). In fact, as you yourself state:

Whill wrote:

it is only natural that gamers still playing WEG Star Wars are often going to have more than just continuity from the EU in their personal SW universes. And many things in WEG have been canonized into the newer universe, so WEG still serves as a basis for both. My Star Wars universe has elements from both the EU and the canon universe, but it also deviates from both in some ways.

I agree with this 100%. You’re right that it’s only natural and fitting with the RPG genre.

So, all I’m asking for is a little bit of nuance. Since, apparently, you fully understood the original question and you fully understood my answer, your matter-of-fact clarification could have been along the lines of, “The Chimaera as it appears in the novels and in the RPG is stated—and statted—to be an Imperial II, yes, but the Chimaera as it appeared in some recent episodes of Rebels (which I believe was what the original poster was asking about) is presumably an Imperial I, according to Wookieepedia.”

Whill wrote:

If it is clear from context, then let the context qualify it. If this wasn't clear from context to you, then you could have asked which Chimera he was talking about. And here's some friendly advice for considering context going forward - His previous sentence referred to noticing a painted/decaled image on the ship. I feel it's quite obvious he's referring to a visual medium so he's not talking about a Thrawn Trilogy novel.

Well now we’re nitpicking, but, as you already admitted, it was always clear to you that I didn’t (originally) know that the Chimaera had been featured in the cartoon show, or that it appears to be changed to an Imperial I in that show (or has been stated to be an Imperial I? honestly I’m still not sure how you can be so sure). And I remain incredulous—though obviously this is subjective—that that could possibly in anyone’s mind trump what THE Chimaera is and always has been, namely, in:

14 novels
14 sourcebooks (RPG and otherwise, eg., “Essential Guide” series)
4 video games
3 comic books

Of which all but the novels themselves are or contain visual media. (And the novels can and do, of course, describe visual appearances.) Oh, and it has been identified with one of the Imperial IIs shown in RotJ, according to a card game or something.

Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
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Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:42 am Post subject:

Rezikai wrote:

so anyone notice the huge Chimera image painted/decaled on Thrawn's Star Destroyer?

Also anyone got stats on the Chimera?

Falconer wrote:

Really? Forgive my incredulity, but from his post and your answer it seems you knew he was talking about the star destroyer not a mythological creature. And if all those EU sources which describe the Chimaera do not describe an image of a creature on the ship, then you should know he wasn't talking about the EU Chimaera. If you had no idea there even was a canon Chimaera, then wouldn't his post have elicited a response from you along the lines of "What image?"? And if you had no idea there was a canon Thrawn now, what rock do you live under? 8) It's been heavily marketed to the vast multitude of EU fans bemoaning the loss of Thrawn from canon. Well, by popular demand, Thrawn's back. I have a hard time believing that any Star Wars fan with internet would not hear about Thrawn being put in Rebels (and thus there being a possibility of a canon Chimaera), even if they do not have Disney XD or watch the series. Your responses come across as someone who actually knew exactly what the guy was asking for but you instead answered with your preferred default reference, but I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Falconer wrote:

You should be aware that your pronouncement of your answer as “Canon” carries the connotation of denigrating the sources that disagree with it.

No. You should be aware that my words carry absolutely no connotations you accuse them of. 0%. You infer something that is simply not there. By you stating that EU should be the default, you have made it clear you are actually the one that holds one superior to the other one. It seems now that you are trying to paint me as your opposition in this dichotomy (which you say is false while you participate in it), but you've got the wrong guy!

Do you not read my posts here? I have many. I wear my heart on my sleeve for all to see. There is no deception, manipulation, or persuasion from me. There are no subtle connotations. You get what you get. A guy asked for the stats of Thrawn's star destroyer. You answer by stating what class of ship it is because that would indicate the stats. It was clear he was talking about the canon version, and since your answer was the EU version, your answer was factually incorrect. I corrected it. There wasn't any sort of implication of superiority in canon vs. EU or the canon ship vs. the EU ship (Off the top of my head I couldn't even tell you if Imp Is or Imp IIs are better). You're taking the fact correction as personal when it wasn't. My correction was completely matter-of-fact, only for the sake of correct information being available here, for the user who requested the stats and anyone else participating in or reading this thread. The stats that were actually being requested would be the Imp I stats. That's it!

Yes, if it would have spared these attacks I wish I would have been more clear in my response. I wish I would have said, "He means the canon version of the ship, which is Imp I, a difference from the EU version. Not that the canon version is in any way superior to the EU." I have come to regret not putting that level of detail into my answer. But I do hope that going forward you will not read into my posts, or else I'll feel like I will always have to walk on eggshells around your sensitivities to these things.

For the record please let me explicitly share what I think about canon. The canon and legends universe share the classic and prequel film trilogies, and The Clone Wars TV show and "movie". Overall I love the films and do not like TCW. The canon universe has two live action movies which I love that do not exist in legends, and I will admit that I never cared for the EU's alien invasions of the month or killing Chewbacca. EU publications are very hit or miss for me. I love a lot of it and don't love a lot of it. However I have been totally unimpressed by canon's non-film publishing that I have experienced so far. Aftermath was horrible. Tarkin was meh. Catalyst was meh. I am extremely disappointed in the canon reference books. The EU's reference books totally blow canon's away. The Rebels canon TV show, while it is cool they have drawn some inspirations from WEG and occasionally have other cool ideas (like TCW occasionally did), it just really bothers me in a lot of ways because it contradicts the films. I liked that most part EU-continuity stayed out of the films. I like them separate because I like to selectively disregard some works with respect to my personal canon. I dislike how the canon model is such that, at least on paper, continuity from the kiddie cartoons and novels I don't like could actually enter films. For example, I was so relieved that Rebels killed off Maul (which TCW had resurrected) because I was afraid they would do something like bring Maul back in a live action movie, which I would hate (He was cut in half and both pieces fell a very long distance!) There are rumors of Ezra from Rebels appearing in the next movie and that makes me very anxious.

So EU "vs" canon for me... Overall I just don't know. I reject some of both for my personal SWU. The Canon Universe had a chance to wipe the slate clean and start fresh with no film contradictions, but it has failed to do that and has made many of the same the mistakes the EU made. I post this in an attempt to avoid future accusations of implying "canon superiority" going forward.

It should be plainly clearly that my actual bias is that live action theatrical films are superior to non-film publications and shows from both the EU and Canon universes. I don't think the admittedly flawed Jedi Order would be quite so stupid to promote Anakin to Knighthood and give him his own padawan one month after Yoda sensed literally across the galaxy that Anakin was in "terrible pain" from his mother traumatically dying in his arms, so I reject that. I don't think that a 16 year-old padawan of a padawan could use a lightsaber to quickly cut through the outer hull of a star destroyer like it was butter to get inside, so I reject that (Why did Qui-Gon not have time get all the way through the blast door on the Trade Federation ship?). I don't like how one-man TIE fighters have enough room inside for three Rebels, so I reject that.

However it is possible for myself and many others to actually just have conversations, express facts and share information without putting our biases into action.

Falconer wrote:

That’s why, as I said, to many fans, “Canon vs. Legends” is a false dichotomy, a construct that as fans they are not required to accept just because that’s what Disney promotes. (Just as many people don’t accept the Special Editions, the Prequels, TCW, etc.).

It's not a false distinction. I disagree that Disney promotes a dichotomy. Canon and Legends are two separate and equally official Star Wars universes. They both still make money for Disney, and I know a great many fans who like both the EU and the canon universes. The EU is technically even still expanding, albeit much more slowly than before (The FFG RPG material is Legends, not Canon). The Canon universe started with just the first six films and TCW, and is newly expanding from that. Canon is pretty much EU2. It is possible to discuss what exists within the canon and legends universes without discussing our personal universes which exist in a multiverse of unofficial universes. If someone is asking for stats for an EU or canon ship, you are not going to just provide the stats for your own personal SWU without qualifying your answer as that. "If it helps, here are my personal Star Wars Universe's stats for the Chimaera." No star destroyers in my personal SWU have emblems like that ship does in the Rebels TV show, but I can still answer EU or canon-related questions factually without even bringing my universe up.

Falconer wrote:

And I remain incredulous—though obviously this is subjective—that that could possibly in anyone’s mind trump what THE Chimaera is and always has been, namely, in:

14 novels
14 sourcebooks (RPG and otherwise, eg., “Essential Guide” series)
4 video games
3 comic books

You are the one putting EU and Canon into an opposing dichotomy by you saying trump and presenting a "case" for EU superiority. Again, the EU and Canon Universe are not opposing. Yes, they are different in many ways, but they are both equally official. They coexist. George Lucas, who was very stubborn about the way he wanted things in Star Wars, conceded there was a vast Star Wars multiverse mostly made of personal fan universes, so it shouldn't be that bitter pill for any fan to swallow.

It sounds like your personal SWU takes after the EU more than Canon. That's great. (Mine probably does too overall.) If you enjoy your personal SWU, then more power to you. But you should try to consider that the primacy and the number of sources for continuity that differs between the two official universes is not a factor for how a lot of people determine things in their own personal SWUs. Someone could be a fan of the EU and just like how something is done in the Canon universe better. Someone could say that in their personal SWU, the Chimaera is a rainbow-colored Imperial-III star destroyer that shoots fire at enemy ships, just because they want it like that. From your above statement it seems like you have a hard time even understanding how anyone could have a different personal SWU than you based on your personal method for contradiction resolution.

One final note. In my personal SWU, there is a Grand Admiral Thrawn which is different than both the canon and EU versions. There is a Chimaera and it is an Imp II. I didn't mention that before because it wasn't pertinent to the discussion.

Falconer, if you still doubt my sincerity and think I'm secretly operating out of some anti-EU agenda, I respectfully ask that you please take this to PM. Thank you.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering

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Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:18 pm Post subject:

MrNexx wrote:

*What IS the rank to formally command a Star Destroyer?

The Imperial Sourcebook uses the term Line Captain (equivalent to a Commodore), as the senior officer of a small group of ships (called a Line). Since a Star Destroyer is considered the equivalent of a line all by itself, it would seem to follow that it would be commanded by a Line Captain.
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