Skywalker Loop?

[Mojomoe]

Heya folks.

I'm looking heavily into starfighter combat maneuvers for my gaming groups which has been playing a lot of X-Wing lately, and trying to adapt the various maneuvers to D6 better.

The only one I'm having trouble visualizing is the Skywalker Loop. D20/SAGA claims it was invented by Anakin Skywalker, and it involves "looping back on your previous position but traveling the opposite direction." Are they... are they just describing a regular half-loop? Or did Anakin Skywalker do something fancy with it? Was this ever shown in the movies or tv shows? I need a visual reference to make a diagram. Because if it's an upward loop with a half-roll, it's a Koiogran Turn (Immelmann), and if it's a down loop with a half-roll, it's a Split-S. So I'm not sure what they're getting at...

In other news, I'm thinking about combining maneuver checks against difficulty and the opposed pilots rolls into one check. For instance, a maneuver would have a set difficulty of Difficult (5D). The pilots would roll their skills, and the GM would roll the difficulty. If the maneuvering pilot beat the difficulty AND their opponent, the maneuver is successful. If the beat the difficulty but NOT the opponent, the opponent out maneuvers but otherwise no effect. If they beat the opponent but NOT the difficulty, they gain advantage but suffer a collision or spin out. And if they fail both, they gain no advantage AND suffer collision or spin out.

Thoughts? Id like to have these become more useful in my game. I suppose I would also potentially use them as specializations? Or perhaps like Force skills, you have to have a teacher show you.

[CRMcNeill]

Considering that a lot of these maneuvers happen in Zero-G, I'm not sure you need a distinction between upper and lower variants of what is essentially the same maneuver. The only possible reason (IMO) was if the combat was taking place in close enough proximity to a gravity well that there was sufficient pull to be the equivalent of "up" or "down". But even then, is it really all that different from the Bootleg Turn described in the RAW?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Mojomoe]

Out of curiosity, where is the Bootleg Turn listed in the RAW?

[CRMcNeill]

[Dredwulf60]

Star Wars fighters clearly 'fly' and maneuver through the vacuum of space as if they were aircraft flying through an atmosphere, as seen in any of the movies featuring space combat.

WHY this happens in-universe requires an interesting explanation beyond my interest level.

WHY it happens cinematically is quite a bit easier to grasp.

But in either case, any and all maneuvers suitable for WWII fighter planes and modern jet fighters are suitable in a Star Wars dogfight.

Which is why they appear in WEG Star Wars books in the first place; with such entries as 'The Scissors' and 'The Tallon Roll'.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Flat_scissors_with_instruction_diagram_symbols.PNG


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_scissors

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tallon_Roll

[Dredwulf60]

[Dredwulf60]

[Mojomoe]

Really?

I was reading about that recently, Pugachev's Cobra seems more about stalling (thus removing velocity) and checking your six, but you maintain your vector. The vague descriptor of the Skywalker Loop says you fly back "through your previous position" while traveling in the "opposite direction." These are super vague terms, though, which makes it difficult. Though I do agree that most aerial maneuvers translate to Star Wars, except maybe stalls - those might be a harder sell to players (since they rely on downward gravity and loss of momentum fairly obviously. Wouldn't you think?)

I don't think it could qualify as a Bootlegger Turn, since "turn" and "loop" are pretty inviolate terms. The Bootlegger is a tight 180 with no roll or pitch, meaning the cockpit remains level throughout the flight. A loop requires the ship to pitch, rotating 180 on the lateral axis for a half-loop and 360 on the lateral for a full loop, with no roll or yaw.

It really sounds like they're just describing a half-loop (since a full loop would not leave you traveling in the opposite direction, but the same initial vector once complete.) Whether it has a half-roll as well (leveling the cockpit's "up" vector after the maneuver) is unknown. What I also don't understand is why this is a "named" maneuver at all - it's just a loop. I suppose it could be situational, like the Segnorls Loop, which is technically a feint+loop. Perhaps we can intuit from the D20 effect ("if your opponent failed a maneuver check, you may immediately make an attack"), that it's an opportunistic surprise loop performed when an opponent tries to maneuver to get a shot at you but fails; you immediately reverse course (by looping) and startle them. I dunno, it's loose but maybe?

[Mojomoe]

Ok, I've done further research and some Nth-level rereading of the SAGA material.

Looks like a Skywaker Loop is mostly situational, and less about the actual aerobatic maneuver. It's actually a snap, reaction-based version of a Segnor's Loop: Segnor's involves pmflying rapidly away from a target (feint) before rapidly looping back and lining up an attack run. The kicker is that a Segnor's can be performed outside of dogfighting; in theory, a Star Destroyer could Segnor.

A Skywalker Loop, by comparison, is a rapid reaction to the opponent missing a shot or maneuver, where a pilot loops suddenly back and surprises the opponent by taking an attack of opportunity (or a "snap-shot"). It seems much less planned, and more spur-of-the-moment.

I think I'm ok with that.

However, it breeds another question: after rereading the D6 2ERE rules, it says little to nothing about turning. It mentions that an "extreme turn" or "extreme climb" is one performed at "greater than 45 degrees", but it doesn't say how you are allowed to turn when moving your Space speed on a gridded map. Without "extreme turns," are you then limited to 45 degrees throughout an entire move action, beyond which you are required to roll for success?

[CRMcNeill]

[garhkal]

[JironGhrad]

[Dredwulf60]

[Zarn]

Cat? Mashi Horansi, more likely. Disguised as a Krogan, or something. We must go deeper...

[Mojomoe]

I would agree with it being a worthwhile endeavor to pursue more interesting starfighter maneuvers, if for no other reason than it helps players visualize their ship movements and perhaps develop signature moves.

Perhaps a player has a cool reason for doing a Split-S rather than a Koiogran, maybe they're setting up something cool that I don't know about yet. Why not give them the options? Plus then at the least with more detailed maneuvers they can spout some meaningful Top Gun-sequel fight jargon and call out moves to each other, and feel more like fighter pilots.

I'm considering a couple of additional mechanics, one for signature moves that offer a bonus to you/your teammates or a detriment to the opponents and one for showboating - basically, a specialization of intimidation (intimidation: starfighter piloting) that lets them scare the crap out of lower-grade pilots to make them nervous and slip up.