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Merrick
Ensign
Joined: 05 Jun 2014
Posts: 45
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 Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with DougRed, and anyone before him.
Walker Skill + Maneuverability -vs- Dodge/Dex + Scale (4D)
Damage = Walker Body (6D) + Scale (4D)
Considering Luke put himself into the situation of nearly being crushed by the walkers foot to get to some supplies, I might have handled it with a dodge -vs- difficulty # based on the complexity of what he was trying to accomplish before the foot landed. (Just Grab his light saber and a thermal detonator) Damage would be the same Body (6D) + Scale (4D). You may reason that a low damage roll would be a glancing blow...
A one on the wild die and failure would be Death...
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Seghast
Cadet
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Merrick wrote: |
Damage = Walker Body (6D) + Scale (4D)
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I see the reasoning behind this, but with as large as an AT-AT is and with as much as it must weigh (depending on if it's fully loaded with troops/supplies or not), 10D actually feels too low. Depending on the character's strength and their armor vs. physical, they could theoretically survive a direct hit/stomp.
Most humans won't, but something like a maxed-strength Wookiee with good armor? It's possible based on how the dice land for both parties, but it's so terribly unrealistic that I would just go with "you die." I really hate to see PCs killed off and I generally try to cut them a break for bad rolls, but there are some things where it's just too absurd to give them a free pass on.
My group and I actually had a discussion on things like this once when we realized we'd hit a point where some of the PCs had the strength and armor versus energy to possibly survive holding a thermal detonator as it explodes. At that point, we had to draw a line; you might get a pass on an unlucky roll versus a blaster, but holding a thermal because you think you're virtually immortal is a no-go and your character will die, no dice rolling needed.
Likewise, you will not survive a direct hit from an AT-AT's foot.
I'm not completely merciless on it; if you make a dodge roll and you make it aside from that pesky one on the wild die, you live (minus a limb or two). But if you blow the roll completely...sorry. |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2269
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I totally agree, Seghast. We had a similar discussion not that long ago about getting caught in a closing blast door.
That's part of why I like Crcmneill’s variant, which has an 8D scale difference between characters and Walkers (in addition to other good things like a difference between Starships and Capitals).
But I completely agree that - no matter what numbers one gets - there are some things that are just going to show character-scale beings how crunchy/squishy they really are. 
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| Seghast wrote: |
Most humans won't, but something like a maxed-strength Wookiee with good armor? It's possible based on how the dice land for both parties, but it's so terribly unrealistic that I would just go with "you die." I really hate to see PCs killed off and I generally try to cut them a break for bad rolls, but there are some things where it's just too absurd to give them a free pass on.
My group and I actually had a discussion on things like this once when we realized we'd hit a point where some of the PCs had the strength and armor versus energy to possibly survive holding a thermal detonator as it explodes. At that point, we had to draw a line; you might get a pass on an unlucky roll versus a blaster, but holding a thermal because you think you're virtually immortal is a no-go and your character will die, no dice rolling needed. |
Especially if that wookie (or other high str character) pops a force point.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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When getting stepped on by an AT-AT, I would actually roll damage based upon the conditions of the terrain, rather than those of the walker. A giant metal foot might just force you into a cavity in the snow or mud, where it would grind you to a pulp on bare rock.
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2269
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | When getting stepped on by an AT-AT, I would actually roll damage based upon the conditions of the terrain, rather than those of the walker. A giant metal foot might just force you into a cavity in the snow or mud, where it would grind you to a pulp on bare rock. |
Good point! I hadn't really considered the ground, but that should play a factor as well.
| garhkal wrote: | | Especially if that wookie (or other high str character) pops a force point. |
From when that's been discussed here before, the vast majority of us play things as described in the RAW, where Force Points are only rewarded back again if they're used for something heroic (which this wouldn't be). Because of that, their expenditure are extremely, extremely rare.
I suppose if a PC was going to be squished, though, it would be the time to spend one. For that matter, if a PC did spend their only FP to survive, I wouldn't have a problem with them surviving, high STR character or not (I would rationalize it as the Force allowed them to be exceedingly lucky).
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lurker
Commander
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
Posts: 423
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:56 am Post subject: |
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To play devil's advocate, ..... what if the player had leaped to push someone out of the way of the descending walker's foot. That would be heroic, especially if the one they pushed out of the way was a critical player in the alliance or an innocent ... Thus the applicable use of a force point ...
Boy, I must be in an argumentative mood. I need my coffee to hurry up and brew apparently ...
Now out of Devil advocate mode ... That would admittedly be a rarity and not the norm. Also, for the narrative, I would argue that even with a force point being used the player should get messed up! Either they use the force point to boost their dodge (and narrowly avoid being squished) or they going to get hurt even with the force point. You could make it where they are broken and on deaths door and need advanced medical treatment ASAP if you are sympathetic. But, there should be no way they stand up and smile and dust themselves off like it was a walk in the park.
Hmmm, unless, (and this is Fallon's post) you can narrate it somehow, ... they jump and land in a depression on the ground and the foot presses them into the depression but there is enough room for them the live while the surrounding ground supports the weight of the foot ... I know it sounds farfetched, but having been mortared I know the difference even an 8 - 10 inch animal wallow can make on cover and protection ... so a great narrative element can give you or the player an out ... If it is deserved that is.
Ok coffee is almost finished, so maybe my next post will be more focused ... 
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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So here goes for a first attempt at a write up for situations like this.
Trample attacks.
Many vehicles, especially walkers and tracked vehicles, suffer in the shooting department due to the scaling rules favoring the capacity of smaller foes to dodge out of the attacks. Also certain weapons may not be able to hit someone too close to the vehicle. So what can those in that situation do about it? Trample/run them over.
This is an opposed roll, of the vehicle operator's skill+maneuverability code against the targets dodge+4d scale difference (or if you use the old scale caps go by dodge on it's own).
If the target is hit, damage is based on the body or hull of the vehicle, + scale mods (if used), with an additional modifier based on the terrain.
Loose soil/muddy areas can cause the person to get squished into the earth, thereby lessening the damage. -3d
More compact soil/earth areas, such as being out in normal land/forests still have some absorption factor, so get -1d
Asphalt and concrete does not have much give so damage is normal
PS mods, can this now get moved to the house rule section?
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Ta dah!
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks!
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Seghast
Cadet
Joined: 13 Jun 2014
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | So here goes for a first attempt at a write up for situations like this.
Trample attacks.
Many vehicles, especially walkers and tracked vehicles, suffer in the shooting department due to the scaling rules favoring the capacity of smaller foes to dodge out of the attacks. Also certain weapons may not be able to hit someone too close to the vehicle. So what can those in that situation do about it? Trample/run them over.
This is an opposed roll, of the vehicle operator's skill+maneuverability code against the targets dodge+4d scale difference (or if you use the old scale caps go by dodge on it's own).
If the target is hit, damage is based on the body or hull of the vehicle, + scale mods (if used), with an additional modifier based on the terrain.
Loose soil/muddy areas can cause the person to get squished into the earth, thereby lessening the damage. -3d
More compact soil/earth areas, such as being out in normal land/forests still have some absorption factor, so get -1d
Asphalt and concrete does not have much give so damage is normal
PS mods, can this now get moved to the house rule section? |
Unfortunately, hull codes don't take into account the sheer size and weight of these vehicles. An AT-ST looks like it's probably about a third of the weight of a main battle tank, maybe as small as sixth. An M1 Abrams is 67 tons, so that walker is going to be, at minimum, ten tons and at most, twenty. AT-ATs get even more absurd; you're looking at a heavily-armored body that's about the size of a 3 bedroom/1 bath house, give or take, and four massive feet that are roughly the size of an Abrams (and likely the weight, too). I don't even want to try and guess how much the whole thing weighs. I mean, that foot crushed Luke's speeder pretty thoroughly and that thing was a lot sturdier than a frail, flesh body is going to be.
I think the only possible way a player would survive being trampled by a walker is if he's exceptionally-strong and it's a smaller walker like an AT-PT or something. An AT-AT is pretty much instant death, and an AT-ST may not kill you outright, but you're looking at mortal wounds (like say, everything from the waist down getting turned into jelly).
Terrain modifiers are a good idea up to a point, but that also starts to feel too much like Looney Tunes if a walker steps on you, everyone thinks you're dead, and when the foot moves, you pop up and say "hey guys, how's it goin'?" With the weight of these vehicles, as much as you'll be pushed down into loose soil or snow, that big, heavy metal foot will be pushed down as well. Loose/soil/muddy areas will give you some small safety net, sure, but 3d feels a bit much (maybe 1d+2). |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:22 am Post subject: |
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So any of our newer folk got any input into this?? Should a walker such as an AT-AT do more than just scale+body rating in damage?
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