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cynanbloodbane
Commander
Joined: 05 Dec 2014
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Location: Cleveland, Go Tribe!
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 Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Correction: Cute little, MAN EATING, primitive teddy bears.
POWs of the battle of Endor were a non issue, unless the issue was spit roast or stewed.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14214
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
You obviously fall into the former category of GMs I mentioned. To you, GMs are just mere judges who administer the rules but feel the game mechanics are totally self-propelling of the narrative - Rules are absolute and supreme to you. You've stated before that you don't approve of fudging, even for the sake of the story. I'm not sure if you just want to antagonize, but I do acknowledge and respect your preference for rollplaying games. |
No, its just a lot of times when i hear someone say that "they alter the rule/rolls to best serve the story", it makes me wonder why bother rolling... If you are going to change the result anyway, it makes no sense to even have them roll.
And yes i do understand and realise that the R&E rule book does say a dm CAN fudge, if he feels it is warranted. Too often though i hear people saying (especially in sparks) that, it them means he MUST.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10436
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | And yes i do understand and realise that the R&E rule book does say a dm CAN fudge, if he feels it is warranted. Too often though i hear people saying (especially in sparks) that, it them means he MUST. |
No one here is saying you MUST fudge. And for GMs that do, it shouldn't happen in every adventure. If a GM fudges a lot, then they really aren't planning their adventures according to the PC levels of ability.
| garhkal wrote: | | No, its just a lot of times when i hear someone say that "they alter the rule/rolls to best serve the story", it makes me wonder why bother rolling... If you are going to change the result anyway, it makes no sense to even have them roll. |
I'm sorry. Before I thought you might be trolling me, but now it seems you really don't understand. I'll try to explain a little better.
Example #1
GM: ... OK, so you took down two of Garhkal the Hutt's goons, but now it is two remaining goons' turn. Goon #1 shoots at Roark.
Player 1: Thanks, Mike. You just had to flub that sneak roll and blow the whole plan as soon as we enter the hutt's secret cargo bay. I dodge.
Player 2: The wild die hates me tonight! As soon as we can escape we'll have to hide out in the starport until the others return.
GM: Roll Roark's dodge, minus 1D. (rolls goon attack)
Player 1: 11.
GM: It's a hit so roll your damage resistance. (rolls damage)
Player 1: Uh... 9?
GM: Ooh 18. Sorry, he 'I'ed you.
Player 1: Well, if Blain doesn't kill this last guy and drag me out of here, I hope they want to us alive and have a med droid! Good night.
GM: And of course that means Goon #2 shoots at Blain.
Player 2: I dodge. (picks up dice)
GM: Don't forget your map.
Player 2: Oh right (puts down one die, then rolls)
GM: (rolls). OK.
Player 2: Ugh, 8. It's a hit, isn't it?
GM. Yes.
(GM and Player 2 roll dice.)
Player 2: Aaagh! I have to change all these dice! 5!
Player 1: (face palms)
(GM gets a 6 on the wild die and rolls it again. Then he gets another 6 and rolls it again. Total is 21, for a difference of 16 which is a kill result.)
GM: Whoa, you lucked out. A 20. Mortally Wounded.
Player 2: Aaah!
Player 1: Oh, great.
GM: OK. Roark, you wake up and see Blain floating in a bacta tank on your right...
Player 1: Back on our ship??
GM: ...then a horrible smelling breeze comes from the left. You turn your head to Garhkal the Hutt's face 10 centimeters away from your head as he says in Huttese, "You and I have a lot to talk about, Roark."
Example #2
GM: Sneak in, good plan. You encounter a patrol of four goons.
Player 2: Don't we get to roll sneak?
GM: Nah, they heard you. I'll give you initiative, Do you attack them?
Player 1: Well yeah but...
GM: You take out two. Then the remaining 2 shoot at both of you, hit, and you both get wounded. Next round...
Player 1 and 2: What??!!
Example #1 is normal RAW gameplay that happens to include a fudge. Example #2 is not bothering to roll dice at all. Do you now see the difference?? They are far from the same thing.
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4853
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:04 am Post subject: |
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There are a lot of times I'll fudge in the opposite direction. A PC with 6D in something figure's he/she is going to just roll over a goon. I roll the goon's piddly 2D, and it comes up with a 3. Then I pick up the Wild Die and re-roll it. I grimace, then roll again. I widen my eyes and raise my eyebrows as I roll again.
Every holds their breath.
I say, "You just BARELY hit."
Then everyone gets excited.
I mean, the outcome wasn't in question. But raising the tension in that moment helped make the evening more fun.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14214
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | I'm sorry. Before I thought you might be trolling me, but now it seems you really don't understand. I'll try to explain a little better.
..snip..
Example #1 is normal RAW gameplay that happens to include a fudge. Example #2 is not bothering to roll dice at all. Do you now see the difference?? They are far from the same thing. |
No i do understand, but from experience (especially in the Sparks group), it seems all the fudging done is only like in your Example 1.. IN the players favor. Several Gms also seem to push the mantra of 'dice will never kill a PC, only their stupidity will.
Those 2 mantras along with other instances of witnessing fudging going on, reducing my enjoyment in the game, is why i can't stand fudging.
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cynanbloodbane
Commander
Joined: 05 Dec 2014
Posts: 410
Location: Cleveland, Go Tribe!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Whill wrote: | I'm sorry. Before I thought you might be trolling me, but now it seems you really don't understand. I'll try to explain a little better.
..snip..
Example #1 is normal RAW gameplay that happens to include a fudge. Example #2 is not bothering to roll dice at all. Do you now see the difference?? They are far from the same thing. |
No i do understand, but from experience (especially in the Sparks group), it seems all the fudging done is only like in your Example 1.. IN the players favor. Several Gms also seem to push the mantra of 'dice will never kill a PC, only their stupidity will.] |
Well, yea, they want to keep people coming back year after year con after con. High body counts are fine if you expect them. Call of Cthulhu for example, you go in expecting to die or go insane. While I am not opposed to playing a high body count Star Wars D6 game, I can also see why Sparks is run differently. They play to their fan base. Some of the sparks PCs have been around for decades. That's a huge investment of time to see flushed by a lucky shot.
] | Quote: | | Those 2 mantras along with other instances of witnessing fudging going on, reducing my enjoyment in the game, is why i can't stand fudging. |
It's all a matter of mindset, if you know going in that a game could be a meatgrinder, it is easier just enjoy the game as is. I was even wondering after Origins if you wouldn't be happier running an adventure where everyone brings a character, an heir & a spare type of set up. Nothing ambiguous there, the players walk in expecting two character deaths each, and no punches to be pulled.
I'm asking not accusing, but can you say you have never fudged to keep a BBG alive to haunt the PCs in a future adventure? I know I have.
PCs should get the same treatment. If you NEVER fudge a roll, then you are running a fair game and there is nothing at all wrong with that.
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"Yes because killing the guy you always planned on usurping and killing anyways in order to save your own kid, totally atones for murdering a roomful of innocent trusting children." The Brain |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10436
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| cynanbloodbane wrote: | | High body counts are fine if you expect them. Call of Cthulhu for example, you go in expecting to die or go insane. |
Yeah that Cthulhu campaign where I played the "failed priest" character (who committed suicide to kill the werewolf he eventually became) - Not only was my guy the only character alive from the first adventure - He was the only character still alive including all the ones who had come into the campaign and gone along the way (some PCs dying in their first and only adventure, and some players playing 3 or 4 different characters throughout the campaign). My guy was definitely the exception but the campaign as a whole had a typical attrition rate of CoC. The GM may have fudged to save my guy a couple times because he was enjoying my character as much as I was enjoying the campaign. By the end my PC was on the verge of total insanity and I knew he had far outlived the average Coc character so it really was time to end the story, and the GM was pleased with my "solution."
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10436
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | No i do understand, but from experience (especially in the Sparks group), it seems all the fudging done is only like in your Example 1.. IN the players favor. Several Gms also seem to push the mantra of 'dice will never kill a PC, only their stupidity will.
Those 2 mantras along with other instances of witnessing fudging going on, reducing my enjoyment in the game, is why i can't stand fudging. |
| cynanbloodbane wrote: | | If you NEVER fudge a roll, then you are running a fair game and there is nothing at all wrong with that |
Agreed. garhkal, no one is challenging or disrespecting your choice as a GM not to fudge, but when you ask us here at the Pit if we fudge why we even bother rolling, that comes across as critical of other GMs. (1) You are the only known Sparks GM here, so none of us are the other Sparks judges you have experience with. (2) We are not that extreme in that PCs will never die by bad rolls. In my personal example, the PC's death was only delayed until later in the same adventure - He still died after a little borrowed time. (3) Fudging can go both ways...
| cynanbloodbane wrote: | I'm asking not accusing, but can you say you have never fudged to keep a BBG alive to haunt the PCs in a future adventure? I know I have.
PCs should get the same treatment. |
I'm sure I have saved a bad guy a few times too. But just like in my example above, it was only a temporary extension for the sake of the story, not a permanently lasting fudge.
| cheshire wrote: | There are a lot of times I'll fudge in the opposite direction. A PC with 6D in something figure's he/she is going to just roll over a goon. I roll the goon's piddly 2D, and it comes up with a 3. Then I pick up the Wild Die and re-roll it. I grimace, then roll again. I widen my eyes and raise my eyebrows as I roll again.
Every holds their breath.
I say, "You just BARELY hit."
Then everyone gets excited.
I mean, the outcome wasn't in question. But raising the tension in that moment helped make the evening more fun. |
But that is not really a fudge in the opposite direction. The fake wild die explosion had the same exact outcome as the 3 dodge roll. That is a completely neutral fudge. Pure theatrics. Hats off to you sir!
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cynanbloodbane
Commander
Joined: 05 Dec 2014
Posts: 410
Location: Cleveland, Go Tribe!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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That's why I roll dice for no reason then ask for a random know or sensors check...
"Nevermind."
Then I let em wonder what they just missed. 
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"Yes because killing the guy you always planned on usurping and killing anyways in order to save your own kid, totally atones for murdering a roomful of innocent trusting children." The Brain |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14214
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| cynanbloodbane wrote: |
It's all a matter of mindset, if you know going in that a game could be a meatgrinder, it is easier just enjoy the game as is. I was even wondering after Origins if you wouldn't be happier running an adventure where everyone brings a character, an heir & a spare type of set up. Nothing ambiguous there, the players walk in expecting two character deaths each, and no punches to be pulled. |
Lol.. Almost reminds me of one of our group's members going on about a new SW board game similar to the fantasy flight stuff, where the dm is listed as deliberatly trying to stop the players winning.
He said "I would be great for that"!
| cynanbloodbane wrote: |
I'm asking not accusing, but can you say you have never fudged to keep a BBG alive to haunt the PCs in a future adventure? I know I have. |
Once in a blue moon, maybe. The only time recently i can remember was when one lucky shot in the very first round of combat would have killed the BBEG and made the entire final fight rather undramatic. I countered it though with he would not kill any PC, just ko. Though he still died 5 rounds into the combat.
| cynanbloodbane wrote: |
PCs should get the same treatment. If you NEVER fudge a roll, then you are running a fair game and there is nothing at all wrong with that. |
As i have said before. Newbies i tend to fudge just a little, as they are not used to the game. Maybe make that killing shot into a maim instead. Once someone gets past that newbie state though (5 or more games), then IMO the "Kid gloves are off".
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