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DougRed4
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Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I know I'm not Whill, but I'd say the same thing as garhkal: I'd just tell people I'm not interested in running (or playing) in such a game (that happens to be my stance as well).
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthOmega wrote: | I also have a question for Whill - what would happen if all of your players demanded that they wanted to play in a "evil campaign"?
...I'm like you in that I believe that certain games exist to play in a certain style and Star Wars to me is about being heroic (or a scoundrel with a deep seated want to be good), not evil and I plan to hold to my stance even if it loses me those players. Just wondering what you would do if it happened to you. |
Yeah, like the others said, I would tell the players if they want to play that evil PCs game, one of them can GM and they can play that on different nights without me. Plain and simple. They wouldn't ever demand that I run it, because they know up front I'm not down for that.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| DarthOmega wrote: | | They openly follow a Sith Lord after all. |
Maybe it was established in the EU or TCW, but there's no film evidence confirming that Dooku was openly a Sith Lord. In AotC, the Jedi Order's leaders were confident Dooku was only a political idealist until Dooku used Sith Lightning on the Jedi and Yoda sensed the Dark Side in Dooku. The Jedi seemed to have concluded that Dooku must be a Sith Lord. In RotS, Palpatine attempts to sow fear and doubt in Obi-Wan and Anakin by stating Dooku is a Sith Lord before their confrontation, but Palpatine could have just been stating it because it was what the Jedi had previously told him they believed. It makes sense to me that there may have even been rumors and speculation throughout the galaxy about Dooku being a Sith Lord. Also, not everyone in galaxy may know or think that the Sith Order is necessarily evil anyway. According to Emperor Palpatine, the Jedi were the evil ones, and Darth Vader does seem to be known as a Dark Lord of the Sith.
| garhkal wrote: | | So where would you put the separatists into the equation. Evil, misunderstood?? |
| DarthOmega wrote: | | I know your question was posed for Whill, but I would personally think that they would be evil. No doubt. |
You can't generalize entire galactic organizations. The Empire and the Separatist Confederacy would have a mix of some truly sinister b@st@rd*, amoral people, and idealistic followers that truly feel their cause is for the greater good (who likely got snowed over by charismatic leaders in the movement). And we know the Republic was rife with corruption. And I'll bet even the Rebel Alliance would have a few evil sons of blasters in their ranks.
But if you want to consider the morality Separatist movement as a whole, please keep in mind that it was all a bunch of bantha poodoo. The whole entire Clone War was a completely manufactured conflict, a Sith plot so that they could take their revenge on the Jedi for a thousand year-old grudge, and Palpatine could transform the Republic into the Empire. Even the Separatist Council members were all just pawns. Even Dooku himself was a pawn - Palpatine had planned all along for Anakin to kill Dooku and take his place as Sith Lord #2.
| Kytross wrote: | In fact, I think the Separatists are the more heroic group. The Jedi struck first with their assault on Geonosis, starting the clone wars. The Separatists only wanted to leave the Republic, initially.
The Separatists were merely exercising their rights. |
You seem to be misremembering the plot of the prequels, mainly AotC. Jango Fett hired the shape-shifter lady to make two (unsuccessful) assassination attempts on Republic Senator Amidala. After the first attempt, Padme says she think Dooku is behind it, but the Jedi don't wanna hear that. Fett killed the assassin before she could reveal his name, but did so with a dart that Obi-Wan could use to eventually track him down on Kamino. Obi-Wan tangoed with Jango, and then tracked him to Geonosis, where he sneakily finds out that Padme was right - Dooku had attempted to have her assassinated as an overture to secure Trade Federation support of the Separatist movement. Obi-Wan was captured, and after Dooku's failed attempt to tempt him, Obi-Wan was sentenced to be executed for espionage.
The Separatists were certainly not "merely exercising their rights" in plotting the assassination of a popular Republic Senator. Obi-Wan was investigating the assassination attempts when he stumbled across the Separatist stronghold, and this is after Jedi intelligence had initially uncovered evidence pointing to disgruntled spice miners on Naboo (or whatever that throwaway line said). Of course that Senator and Obi-Wan's apprentice had been captured attempting to rescue Obi-Wan, and they were all three going to be killed for good ol' fashion gladiatorial sport when the Jedi showed up. The Jedi brought the clone army because of all battle droids and vehicles present on the planet where the Jedi were attempting to rescue those three Republic governmental officers who had just defeated the deadly creatures viciously loosed on them. I wouldn't really consider that as the Republic striking first.
Should have the Republic just let the three die? That may have delayed the start of the war, but their death would have made them martyrs in the loyalist cause, and war would have been inevitable. And again, this whole no-win scenario was manufactured by the Sith anyway.
| Kytross wrote: | | If Amidala were still queen she may have seceded from the Republic too. They certainly did not come to Naboo's aid during the trade blockade ten years prior. Note, Naboo probably wouldn't have joined the Confederacy, what with the Trade Federation, but I could easily see them leaving the Republic. |
It's interesting to read that. I'm rereading several books including Cloak of Deception right now, and it goes into the galactic economics and politics of the late Republic era. The Senate did have two main political parties, the Core Faction and the Rim Faction. The Core Faction is described as "liberal" - They generally support higher taxes and more centralized galactic authority (federalization). Chancellor Valorum and Bail Antilles of Alderaan were leaders in the Core Faction. The Rim Faction is described as "conservative" - They generally support lower taxes, more sectorial rights/power and big business. The Separatists did get more support from the Rim Faction.
Although from a Mid Rim planet, Palpatine was actually an independent, not officially affiliated with any political party. He was very adept at making everyone believe he was on their side, and took advantage of a divide within the Rim Faction to become a nominee for Chancellor. The Force knows I'm certainly not trying to spark any real world Earth political discussions on this forum, but now I find SW galactic politics a lot more interesting than I did when I first saw TPM in 1999.
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DarthOmega
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Joined: 27 Feb 2014
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Location: Backside of WA state
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Well I guess I would say the leadership of the Separatists could be considered evil, at least in my book. To extrapolate further - in my book anyone building a weapon that can obliterate a planet, innocent people and all, is demonstrably evil. The leadership knew they were building the Death Star, one of the Geonosian leaders gave Dooku the plans to take to Sidious in AotC. And at the very least the Geonosian leaders knew that Dooku was working for someone else as well considering when he takes the plans he states that they will be safer on Coruscant with his master. It's not a far stretch to imagine that the leadership at least was aware that Sidious was behind their movement and that Dooku was his apprentice especially since the Trade Federation knew about Sidious and the Sith in general.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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cynanbloodbane
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Joined: 05 Dec 2014
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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For the most part the CIS senators had no more evidence that Dooku was a Sith than the Republic senators had that Palipatine was one. Most CIS member worlds were outer rim idealists who rightly believed the Republic was corrupt.
One of the possible paths for my players in the current campaign, will be to join an alternative rebel aliance bent on restoring the Confederacy. They blame the Core worlds for both the clone wars and the Empire. "The Rim shall rise again!"
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Kytross
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:23 am Post subject: |
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What the audience knows and what the people in the story know are two different things. Some movies and tv shows do a good job playing off this to tell amazing stories.
The Republic could not prove the assassination attempt was from Jango Fett under Dooku's orders before they attacked Geonosis. All they had was the holo-message from Obi-Wan to Anakin. All Obi-Wan had on Fett was that he wore Mandalorian armor, like the assassin who killed the shapeshifter That he was found on a planet that made saberdarts means little, I live on a planet that makes railguns, I have never used one. According to EU sources (and I hate going to the EU) there was more than one set of Mandalorian armor, so that means little too. Obi-Wan attempted to detain him on a world where he had no jurisdiction, an illegal act by Kenobi. Fett defended himself and his child.
The Jedi violated Geonosis' sovereignty with an army to rescue Obi-Wan, who also violated Geonosis' sovereignty and was legally being executed for espionage, because Obi-Wan was in the middle of committing espionage when they caught him.
Without knowing Dooku ordered the assassination the Jedi attacked Geonosis. They started the clone wars to rescue Kenobi. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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That is a very interesting POV in regards to Obi-wan and both Fett and Genosis.
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cynanbloodbane
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That is a very interesting POV in regards to Obi-wan and both Fett and Genosis. |
Agreed, but the argument is less compelling when you add in that Geonosis was in Hutt space at that time. In effect the CIS building an army in neutral territory, just like the republic. Kind of like the North & South of the US civil war, except each of their armies was secretly trained in Mexico and Cuba.
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: |
The Jedi violated Geonosis' sovereignty with an army to rescue Obi-Wan, who also violated Geonosis' sovereignty and was legally being executed for espionage, because Obi-Wan was in the middle of committing espionage when they caught him. |
Well, that comes down to a question of whether Geonosis was initially a part of the Republic (I can't recall offhand). Questions of sovereignty and Jedi jurisdiction would look very different to the Repbulic vs. the Sepratists, if that be the case. assuming it was indeed a Sepratist, then technically Obi-wan did have jurisdiction (as the whole issue of the CIS was whether they could secede, presumably they had not yet, making them still Republic members).
In that case, Obi-wan was in fact still in Republic territory- and was also going in after secessionists, meaning that these were Republic nationals. (whether pursuing them on neutral or foreign soil was legal, I suppose, would come down to a question of extradition law with Geonosis?) This would also mean that, whatever happened on Kamino (where, to be fair, I don't think Obi-wan got as far as 'trying to detain'- just showed up on the landing pad, got attacked, and had to defend himself), Jango then entered Republic territory, tried to kill Obi-wan (an officer of the law?), and then went to the planet- a fugitive in Obi-wan's jurisdiction, and in every way a legitimate target for pursuit- because of his unprovoked attack in the rings, if nothing else.
If all this be a case, the Jedi were not invading a sovereign nation int heir rescue attempt, but rather trying to put down a nascent revolution against the lawful government by, technically, Republic citizens who were trying to execute a duly-appointed representative of the Republic as a first step in their Rebellion.
I haven't had any luck in researching whether Geonosis was a Republic world, but it was an HQ for Baktoid, which was owned by the Trade Federation, which was a part of the Republic, so most sources seem to suggest that Geonosis was another 'Sepratist'- a.k.a. a part of the Republic trying to separate from it. Thus, while Geonosis would claim 'sovereignty,' I think the case could be made that Obi-wan and the Jedi were operating in their own territory, legally, to stop seditionists from building an arsenal to try and fight against their own government and forcibly create a coup... which would be very much within their mandate.
(Egads... am I defending the PT Jedi order? How did this happen???)
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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It does seem like the PT jedi seemed to feel they could act as lawgivers the galaxy over, even in areas that were not controlled by the republic.
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DarthOmega
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Well the Jedi Order in general always viewed themselves as defenders of the galaxy. Note that they aren't the Guardians of the Galaxy - though I guess with Disney owning both properties there'd be the potential for an interesting cross over...
Rocket: *points at Vader* Hey! I'm gonna need half his body. No really! I need it!
...sorry, random thought. Hope it doesn't actually happen.
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Read my gaming blog at www.alteredrealities.net - click on the tabs near the top for the different pages that usually have character bios and other info. |
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:27 am Post subject: |
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I think that Disney knows there'd be enough of a disturbance in the Force if they tried to steer well-clear of crossovers. 
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