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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Well lets see. They felt their ways were the law, but allowed many 'exemptions' such as Corellia and the planet Ki-ad mundi were from, got so complacent in their ways that the Sith built up right under their noses and didn't notice it. IMO some of that MAY have been cause they were hypocritical and callous. |
Yes, so hypocritical and callous that they would risk their lives without hesitation in the service of the Republic. The films make it clear that the Jedi's authority within the Republic was subject to limitations, and those limitations are what was exploited by the Sith. The Jedi followed the laws of the Republic, including those that constrained their authority, while the Sith, who had no such constraints, exploited those weaknesses for their own ends. Yes, exceptions were made, but the reasons for those exceptions were specific to the circumstances, not just because they felt like making them (and also because it was necessary to ret-con pre-prequel EU history to fit with the films).
But then again, as I said, if you are hell-bent on seeing the Jedi as callous hypocrites, any action they take can be twisted to fit that viewpoint, if you try hard enough.
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:35 am Post subject: |
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One way or the other, we can be tolerant of alternate interpretations of the Jedi's actions, right guys?
I mean, this isn't heading for a flame war about whether Jedi were baby-snatching warlocks, is it?
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Well lets see. They felt their ways were the law, but allowed many 'exemptions' such as Corellia and the planet Ki-ad mundi were from, got so complacent in their ways that the Sith built up right under their noses and didn't notice it. IMO some of that MAY have been cause they were hypocritical and callous. |
Yes, so hypocritical and callous that they would risk their lives without hesitation in the service of the Republic. The films make it clear that the Jedi's authority within the Republic was subject to limitations, and those limitations are what was exploited by the Sith. The Jedi followed the laws of the Republic, including those that constrained their authority, while the Sith, who had no such constraints, exploited those weaknesses for their own ends. Yes, exceptions were made, but the reasons for those exceptions were specific to the circumstances, not just because they felt like making them (and also because it was necessary to ret-con pre-prequel EU history to fit with the films).
But then again, as I said, if you are hell-bent on seeing the Jedi as callous hypocrites, any action they take can be twisted to fit that viewpoint, if you try hard enough. |
Its not really being calous though, in the sense you seem to push. Look at say China or Russia, with big state sponsored sports teams. They scour their lands looking for talent to take from families, and cause of their culture often those families either don't question it, OR consider it a big boost/honor for their son or daughter to be selected. Something similar might be in play with how the Old republic was, where to many families it had that "Peer pressure if you will" of being considered a boost to the families stature that their child was taken. BUT that pressure also can push some families to give their kid(s) over against their better judgement.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | BUT that pressure also can push some families to give their kid(s) over against their better judgement. |
Yes, in totalitarian societies, it certainly could. But I highly doubt a democracy (even a decaying one like the Republic) would exert the same social pressure on its members. I have certainly seen no evidence of such coercion in the films or the EU.
Now, if Force sensitive kids were really weird, as in instinctive Force use actually making the parents a little wary of their kids, then I could see them willingly sending them off to learn to be a Jedi...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | BUT that pressure also can push some families to give their kid(s) over against their better judgement. |
Yes, in totalitarian societies, it certainly could. But I highly doubt a democracy (even a decaying one like the Republic) would exert the same social pressure on its members. |
Does Romania count as a democracy? I mean, yeah, technically they all go out and vote and things... but having been there for a while, I can see some room for skepticism.
They still do their Olympic training the way they did in the communist era. As in, the pre-teen goes away. Still, the place is a far cry from the Republic.
Though, to BOTH of your credits, I don't think that coercion is necessarily a component in social pressure. If the Jedi are idealized, then the underlying psychological underpinnings of a society may make parents less inclined to ask critical questions.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Good point. The more something is looked up to, the less likely people are to question it when someone comes to ask you to give your kid up to be one. Even if you may have reservations, your emotions cause of that idolization may override them.
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DarthOmega
Lieutenant Commander
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Location: Backside of WA state
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:10 am Post subject: |
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I also think that the fact that the Jedi are viewed as upstanding, moral, and honorable goes a long way to parents being a bit more open about sending their children to be trained.
On the flip side look at a setting like Dragon Age. Magic is so feared in that setting that mages are taken to Circles that are overlooked by Templars. Most Templars are taught to be wary of mages, and even to despise them. Mages go through grueling training regimens and ultimately go through a crucible where they are tested to see if they can resist demon possession. If they get possessed, they die, period.
Parents get so paranoid about what happens to mages when they are sent to the Circles that they often hide their children from the Templars, which is a capital crime in most areas. Usually a mage not raised in a Circle (called an apostate) is killed if they are found out, as is anyone who is found supporting them. The Templars have ultimate authority in such matters for the most part, unless someone higher up on the chain of command within the Chantry over rules them, but that doesn't happen often. Now, there is good reason for all of this, most apostates tend to invite demonic possession which turns them into an abomination, apostates also tend to dabble in blood magic (very bad stuff there) in order to get themselves out of the trouble they often find themselves in.
I find the parallels between the two settings very interesting and compelling. They are essentially dealing with the same situation - someone with power who needs to be controlled in order to prevent them from falling towards darker forms of the power they possess. But the people in those two settings deal with the situation in radically different ways.
Just some thoughts I had about this subject, sorry for taking it slightly off-topic with the Dragon Age stuff.
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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Location: PA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Now, if Force sensitive kids were really weird, as in instinctive Force use actually making the parents a little wary of their kids, then I could see them willingly sending them off to learn to be a Jedi... |
So once again, we're into X-men territory... 
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, let's just spin this just a tweak. Clearly the majority seem to think that the Jedi are at least responsible guardians for these very young beings.
However...
What if there is a parental concern league that starts up, citing the potential dangers that the Jedi subject the youngsters. Young teens going into the Cone Wars, and the like. I wonder what bad press they could stir up for the Jedi, especially if they did paint them as cold-hearted, hypocritical, and callous trainers, rather than compassionate guardians.
I wonder what that bad press could do to Jedi recruitment?
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't the holonet website stuff do something with this? Baby Lundy, or something like that- the case of parents trying to get their baby back, implying that just such a wartime movement happened?
EDIT: Here it is...
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/%22Baby_Ludi%22_custody_case (played out across multiple online supplements, linked at the bottom of the article).
So I'd say you're right on, cheshire. I'd assume one news story represents many more, in this case. The real question is... instigated by Palpatine to discredit the Jedi, or legitimate grievances of a galaxy starting to chafe at the Jedi ways, or a combination (legit grievances against Jedi ways, fed by growing disillusionment from ongoing discrediting?) In other words, the chicken, the egg, or the scrambled-eggs-with-fried-chicken platter? 
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, geez, if this was engineered by Palpatine, can you imagine what would happen if he released the holo of Skywalker killing younglings!
I mean, few people supposedly knew the connection between Vader and Skywalker.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | Oh, geez, if this was engineered by Palpatine, can you imagine what would happen if he released the holo of Skywalker killing younglings!
I mean, few people supposedly knew the connection between Vader and Skywalker. |
A little photoshopping would need to get done to put the face of someone else on Ani's body..
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah; Palpatine would NEVER have put Anakin in the spotlight that way. He told Anakin there could be none left not only to steep him in the dark side, but also to eliminate any witnesses. Had that final battle between Anakin and Obi Wan not happened, Anakin would have very likely been widely publicized as the ONE Jedi who remained loyal to him and the Republic, and likely would have played on the capital that would have brought him, since Anakin was already a very publicized hero of the Clone Wars. |
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