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cheshire
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 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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I come at it from the perspective that they're offering their viewpoints on threads that seem to have already on the decline. They offer their perspectives as GMs, and how they would run things in their games. Though they often agree, they do not always. Even in such cases, I don't think that there's a "both sides" to present. There are probably dozens of different perspectives you can present concerning any given issue in roleplaying. If it's their perspective that they offer on their podcast, then that's fine.
Is that "getting the last word?" Probably not. The threads are still open, and you can contribute to them, and even publicly rebuttal what it said in the podcast.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Mojomoe wrote: |
Also if there's time around the holiday season id love to chat about it, mayhaps even on the podcast if you'd like (though I've never done that sort of thing) |
I think it would be great to hear from Mojomoe on the podcast! Once the document goes for its official release, it would be a great way to kick it off.
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Panzerjedi
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Joined: 25 Aug 2013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| aegisflashfire wrote: | This week it was specifically the Z-95 discussion.
Yes its flattering to have someone mention a post made, but it just sometimes feels like the only viewpoint on a particular post is yours. No mention of an opposing view, and as such I'm left with the feeling that you aren't so much reporting both sides, but using the podcast to win arguments without dissent.
It also doesn't always feel like you've done your homework on specific issues. (one of you didn't know basic facts about the product you were reviewing --if only one of you knows, then one of you should be talking, the other can ask questions, but It felt like you were giving opinions on something you had never seen. (I had that issue with a few posts of mine you've discussed. It felt like you read the first post in a thread and then reviewed it without all the information) or were offering an opinion on a particular GM technique before you had seen it in use.
I like to hear your opinions, but make them informed opinions, not just talking to have something to fill time.
I'd like fewer issues, but better research, personally.
Example: on the Z-95 discussion there are Legends canonical Z-95s with split wings (Booster Terrik's for example) which would seem to be an after-market addition.
Also its established that Incom took some customizations and made them into production line stuff for later models (Example, the addition of a hyperdrive by Adar Tallon was later copied by Incom for production line Z-95s. The early versions dont have them.
the final Z-95 posted on the board would seem to fit that pattern of a field modification (such as Booster Terrik's) becoming productionized. |
Tis ok, Aegis, their pod cast cast..... i don't mind, they have their veiws as does eeveryone, I don't feel picked on....  I''ll see the pod cast though. It's still entertaining. And helpful.
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Panzerjedi
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Mojomoe wrote: |
Also if there's time around the holiday season id love to chat about it, mayhaps even on the podcast if you'd like (though I've never done that sort of thing) |
I think it would be great to hear from Mojomoe on the podcast! Once the document goes for its official release, it would be a great way to kick it off. |
I agree, I have a copy im going over maybe testing some stuff out in right now, of the the work..... I've showed to my GM and he likes....... and is trying some in his game.
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| aegisflashfire wrote: | This week it was specifically the Z-95 discussion.
Yes its flattering to have someone mention a post made, but it just sometimes feels like the only viewpoint on a particular post is yours. No mention of an opposing view, and as such I'm left with the feeling that you aren't so much reporting both sides, but using the podcast to win arguments without dissent. |
I am very confused at your criticisms. This is not the first time you have addressed the same issue you have. I would point out to you that neither Daniel nor I have an agenda to belittle someone else's ideas. The whole idea of the podcast is to empower others to continue to develop the game, to make suggestions, offer opinions and so on.
What is it not, is a traditional conversation. Its a recorded discussion between people. When this happens what you get is viewpoint of those involved. We have shied away from sharing every single opinion or response to a post we are discussing because then all it becomes is a rehash of the thread. We attempt to to touch on a thread, explain it very loosely, offer up some observations. If people find an interest we encourage them to read the entire post.
I am not going to now or ever cite every single response to a thread in a attempt to assuage everyone's feelings. If you feel as though we are not covering information in the way you feel we should then please cite and give a thoughtful and legitimate way to resolve the issue. Please keep in mind time restraints of the podcast and so on.
| aegisflashfire wrote: | | It also doesn't always feel like you've done your homework on specific issues. (one of you didn't know basic facts about the product you were reviewing --if only one of you knows, then one of you should be talking, the other can ask questions, but It felt like you were giving opinions on something you had never seen. (I had that issue with a few posts of mine you've discussed. It felt like you read the first post in a thread and then reviewed it without all the information) or were offering an opinion on a particular GM technique before you had seen it in use. |
You are correct there are times I feel that one or both of us is not fully prepared for a certain discussion. I have discussed this with Daniel on a few occasions. What it really comes down to is scheduling. A lot of the time when we have this issue we have had a script in place for as much as 4 weeks but with life and scheduling are unable to get the podcast done. When are finally able to poke our heads up from our respective holes we rush to get the podcast done and to be honest it has suffered because of this at times. Daniel is of the opinion and I share it for the most part, that to remain relevant we must have something out without too much time in between episodes. This is unfortunate because we have a loss in quality but if we did not then we would have a loss of listeners. It is a difficult balancing act.
As for not getting the information correct specifically with your posts. Again keep in mind that when we work out a script we feel that the discussion in that thread has reached a logical conclusion. If someone adds additional information or continues on in that post and we miss it? Well that is a shame, but you understand how it happens.
| aegisflashfire wrote: | | I like to hear your opinions, but make them informed opinions, not just talking to have something to fill time. |
Ewwwww harsh, but I do understand and appreciate you sharing your opinion.
| aegisflashfire wrote: | | I'd like fewer issues, but better research, personally. |
Again, thank you for your opinion. We will see if we can accomodate this in the future where we can or it is relevant.
| aegisflashfire wrote: | | Example: on the Z-95 discussion there are Legends canonical Z-95s with split wings (Booster Terrik's for example) which would seem to be an after-market addition. |
Okay challenge accepted.
You mistaken. There are no Z-95s with split wings. The last production model was the Z-95-AF4. " ... the Z-95-AF4 (Assault Fighter 4; pictured) ... armed with two ... laser cannons." It has two cannons and if you look at the picture in the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels p200 you will see it does not have split wings nor would it make sense to have split wings in light that is has only two cannons and not four. This makes Adar Tallon's Z-95 with hyperdrive a highly modified ship and not something that was at any time stock.
| aegisflashfire wrote: | | Also its established that Incom took some customizations and made them into production line stuff for later models (Example, the addition of a hyperdrive by Adar Tallon was later copied by Incom for production line Z-95s. The early versions don't have them. |
"... Tallon took the standard Z-95 model, fitted it with a Class 3 Hyperdrive, and in the process made the craft more maneuverable." This is a modification, not a production version.
"This would later prompt the Incom Corporation to develop their own hyperdrive-capable Z-95.[11]" This has been retconned and no longer true. Further more it is stated, "Attempts have been made to add hyperdrive engines, but that has been found to be entirely too costly to be worth the effort." RASB82. Furthermore, "There are no Z-95s in the Alliance Fleet (the Z-95 has no hyerpdrive engines) ... RASB82.
The items that Incom used from the Z-95 t to the T65 beyond the cockpit design was ... "... designers incorporated many of the Z-95s hull and ray shielding features when creating the ... X-Wing." RASB82
You may also wish to not that "Attempts have been made to add hyperdrive engines, but that has been found to be entirely too costly to be worth the effort." RASB82
| aegisflashfire wrote: | | the final Z-95 posted on the board would seem to fit that pattern of a field modification (such as Booster Terrik's) becoming productionized. |
Well I do not wish to be rude, but if you had researched the information in detail you would know that the Z-95-AF4 as posted in no way holds to the published material or inferred material. The image he is using is very interesting but it not a production version of any Z-95.
Its also of note that the ARC-170 entered production in 22 BBY and the Clone Z-95 in 21 BBY and it did not have split wings even though the ARC-170 did. You can strongly infer from this that the Z-95s, which would more than likely be in the process of being phased out at this time, at no time had split wings. It is wishful thinking at best.
Now keep in mind that the four X-Wing prototypes and the developers made their way to the Alliance in 1 BBY. A full 21 years after the ARC-170. In that time no official starfighter has been introduced that has the split wing design.
"Although no longer manufactured and now a generation out of date ..." SWSB15: If we assume the SWSB is written during the Rebellion Era that would place its information at 0-5 ABY, further if we use the current measure of a generation as 25 years that would place production stoppage anywhere from 25-15 BBY. Since we know that the ARC-170 replaced the Z-95 and was in full production by 22 BBY then the Z-95 was probably phased out from 23-20 BBY with surplus being sold off to smaller governments and concerns. Since it was a popular design it probably saw additional sales to small governments until the Empire put restrictions on their sales. This would be ~19 BBY.
There are a number of variants that are discussed [Z98ER (extended range) SWSB15, Z-95ML (missile platform) SWSB15, Z9-95C4d (ground support bomber) SWRC25, Z-95XT (twin seat trainer) SWSB15, RASB83, Z-95t (modified by Adar Talon in Tatooine Manhunt) SWRC25, you will not that in 'Tatooine Manhunt' 31 is shows his Z-95 Headhunters as (modified) meaning not stock.]. The only ones officially stat'd are the Z-95, Z-95XT and the Z-95's (modified) by Adar.
It states in the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, "Countless variant Z-95 models have been built because the ship's technology is well understood, and starship mechanics have no problem modifying the ships. The most frequent modifications involve replacing the weapons systems or enhancing the motors for greater speed." These variants are probably very limited after market productions and resold. Like customized cars of today.
Well it only took me about 2+ hours to research this, come to what I feel is a definitive answer to this vehicle, which is going to honk people off. Not what I wanted to do. I want people to create their own stuff and use it in their games. Not piss and moan about little things that really don't make any difference except to peoples egos. I do appreciate you challenging me to research this topic. I now know entirely too much about Z-95 headhunters and ARC-170s. I do like that I now have a better handle on the time line of stuff though, so that is awesome.
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Panzerjedi
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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well to be honest, there are infact special or models of ships in production , like cars today, either way, its a commonm field mod later adopted for the x-wing, if you see it as a special sub variant like me, may be built to limited production numbers like some cars in actual real life..... then it may fit. YMMV however... overall I realize like any writer should, not everyone will like or agree with my work. And not worry on.
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Panzerjedi wrote: | | well to be honest, there are infact special or models of ships in production , like cars today, either way, its a commonm field mod later adopted for the x-wing, if you see it as a special sub variant like me, may be built to limited production numbers like some cars in actual real life..... then it may fit. YMMV however... overall I realize like any writer should, not everyone will like or agree with my work. And not worry on. |
I completely agree with you! I think that was the point I was trying to make. I spent 2+ hours researching this crap and did it make any difference at all? Nope. Did I want it to? Nope. In my life there is enough room for people to do what they want and no one has to be wrong. Especially when it comes to something this minor.
I agree that what you are suggesting is correct. There are variants out there but as I pointed out in the original thread they are probably limited modification or lots then resold. The thing I don't think I can give in on, at canonically, is there are no stock of the production line Z-95s that have either S-foils, hyperdrives or droid sockets.
Where does the image come from? I know it was from one of the Rogue Squadron series by Dark Horse. The thing that is odd about the ship is it has the back end of a Z-95 and wings and fuselage of an X-Wing. You will note the front engines are half circles. All production runs of the Z-95 had circular engine fronts. The reason is that the wings did not split like the X-Wing. I am thinking it is a flashback that is perhaps misremembered or else it was an X-Wing "ugly" maybe. But again depending on the time of the flashback, X-Wing prototypes were not even around until ~1 BBY.
I would be remiss if I did not point out that the Z-95-AF4 had two engines instead of four, 2 fire-linked laser cannons and two concussion missile launchers. I do believe that an X-Wing has two launchers as well but only one per tube. I could be incorrect in this.
Well the dust settles the bottom line is this. If it works for you in your game who I am to say your wrong. Life is too short and gaming too fun to get caught up in these minor things. Thanks for posting the stats.
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Panzerjedi
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Panzerjedi wrote: | | well to be honest, there are infact special or models of ships in production , like cars today, either way, its a commonm field mod later adopted for the x-wing, if you see it as a special sub variant like me, may be built to limited production numbers like some cars in actual real life..... then it may fit. YMMV however... overall I realize like any writer should, not everyone will like or agree with my work. And not worry on. |
I completely agree with you! I think that was the point I was trying to make. I spent 2+ hours researching this crap and did it make any difference at all? Nope. Did I want it to? Nope. In my life there is enough room for people to do what they want and no one has to be wrong. Especially when it comes to something this minor.
I agree that what you are suggesting is correct. There are variants out there but as I pointed out in the original thread they are probably limited modification or lots then resold. The thing I don't think I can give in on, at canonically, is there are no stock of the production line Z-95s that have either S-foils, hyperdrives or droid sockets.
Where does the image come from? I know it was from one of the Rogue Squadron series by Dark Horse. The thing that is odd about the ship is it has the back end of a Z-95 and wings and fuselage of an X-Wing. You will note the front engines are half circles. All production runs of the Z-95 had circular engine fronts. The reason is that the wings did not split like the X-Wing. I am thinking it is a flashback that is perhaps misremembered or else it was an X-Wing "ugly" maybe. But again depending on the time of the flashback, X-Wing prototypes were not even around until ~1 BBY.
I would be remiss if I did not point out that the Z-95-AF4 had two engines instead of four, 2 fire-linked laser cannons and two concussion missile launchers. I do believe that an X-Wing has two launchers as well but only one per tube. I could be incorrect in this.
Well the dust settles the bottom line is this. If it works for you in your game who I am to say your wrong. Life is too short and gaming too fun to get caught up in these minor things. Thanks for posting the stats. |
too true...... too true..... I personally couldn't understand the disagreement...... i never said this was in fact a full prodution model even. hell the stats are nice.. and well done, not op........ heck, if folks want ro wrewrite the fluff of this to be consistent with their games that is cool... you can also you use and not use at you leasure as well, and is also cool. Another is Rule .00 Have fun!, Also See rule .000 If you don't like some thing.. change it. those should be remenbered after rule 0 All rules are optional as is all setting "Canon".
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Bobmalooga
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Location: The south...
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:38 pm Post subject: As a matter of fact... |
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Most of what I know (or thought I knew...) about the Z-95 came from that various books I'd seen them featured in, I remembered there being a variant with a hyper-drive, but didn't remember that it was in fact a modified version. What I did for my game (since I could never find those pesky stats...now I know where they are!) I came up with a final production model (at least in the Kilbuniverse....) just before the X-Wing went into R/D. I had a long time character that used one of these and recently reintroduced this ship as something the local hotshot pilot showed up with...
So here is my version of said ship.
Craft: Incom/Subpro Z-95 Headhunter-ER2
Type: Long-range scout starfighter
Scale: Starfighter
Length: 11.8 meters
Skill: Starfighter piloting: Z-95
Crew: 1
Crew Skill: Varies widely
Cargo Capacity: 85 kilograms
Consumables: 1 week
Cost: 50,000 credits (Very used)
Hyper-drive Multiplier: x3 (capable of one pre-programmed jump)
Hyper-drive Backup: x12
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 6
Atmosphere: 330; 950 kmh
Hull: 4D
Shields: 1D
Sensors:
Passive: 45/1D
Scan: 70/2D
Search: 100/3D
Focus: 20/4D
Weapons:
2 Laser Cannons (fire-linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere: 100-300/1.2/2.5 km
Damage: 4D
Concussion Missiles
Fire Arc: Front
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1/3/7
Atmosphere Range: 50-100/300/700
Damage: 7D
History
This obscure variant of the Z-95 Headhunters was the last line to be produced before Incom went into R/D with their X-Wing class star fighters. While the general body shape and design were used for this class of fighter, it lacked a more powerful hyper-drive and astromech compatibility. Furthermore design enhancements in the X-Wing class allowed for greater maneuverability and weapons to be utilized making it a far superior craft. The ER-2 was used a fair bit in the clone wars before falling into the hands of pirates, fringe systems for planetary defense or private owners. With most of them being damaged or destroyed during the clone wars, this variant is more of a curiosity than something to be found in use these days.
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Panzerjedi
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Joined: 25 Aug 2013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting Bob! may i swipe and refuff?
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Bobmalooga
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Location: The south...
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Panzer, as long as credit is given if you post or use in a book I don't mind, if you're using in your game feel free to use...I'm liberal on that stuff as long as credit is given...
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Panzerjedi
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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no prob. I will
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| TyCaine wrote: | Ranger, let me see if I can put together the links for you to the mp3s themselves.
[EDIT]
Here's the links to the individual episodes for 26+ (up to and including the newest episode 42), you should be able to "right-click" and "save as" on each of the links to download them.
[/EDIT]
T.C. |
By the way, I never said thanks with all the hubbub of the ongoing conversation. So, thanks!
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TyCaine
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Location: Florida, US
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: |
By the way, I never said thanks with all the hubbub of the ongoing conversation. So, thanks! |
You're welcome!
T.C.
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Ranger3277
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Joined: 26 May 2014
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| TyCaine wrote: | Ranger, let me see if I can put together the links for you to the mp3s themselves.
[EDIT]
Here's the links to the individual episodes for 26+ (up to and including the newest episode 42), you should be able to "right-click" and "save as" on each of the links to download them.
[/EDIT]
T.C. |
TYVM TyCaine  |
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